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Author Topic:   NvC-1: What is the premise of Naturalism in Biology?
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 224 of 452 (876618)
05-24-2020 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by GDR
05-23-2020 2:06 PM


GDR writes:
Seems like you are channeling Lewis Caroll. "Words mean what I say they mean."
No. Words have different meanings in different contexts. In a precise context like science, you can not just interchange words willy-nilly.
GDR writes:
In order to observe there has to be something to observe. The reality is the information/data.
No. The reality is matter and energy. The data is the individual measurements. The information is the interpretation that gives the observations "meaning". That meaning depends on whether the observer is a human or an ant, etc. There is no inherent meaning in the matter and energy.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by GDR, posted 05-23-2020 2:06 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by GDR, posted 05-24-2020 12:19 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 241 of 452 (876673)
05-25-2020 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by GDR
05-24-2020 12:19 PM


GDR writes:
Nobody ever said there was meaning. Matter and energy provide information/data that can be measured.
But information IS meaning.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by GDR, posted 05-24-2020 12:19 PM GDR has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 244 of 452 (876688)
05-25-2020 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by WookieeB
05-25-2020 4:29 PM


Wookie B writes:
The thing created in the mind can not be the same thing that is input.
I didn't say it was. I said that the information is created IN the mind FROM the inputs.
Wookie B writes:
If there are a "unique set of inputs" (which is the information)...
No, the inputs are not information. Information is what the mind creates from the inputs
WookieB writes:
... the information is external, imprinted on matter...
You have not presented anything to support that claim.
Wookie B writes:
If every copy of Macbeth was erased from every mind and every medium, then the information would be gone too.
That's what I've been saying. But you seem to be saying that the information exists independent of any mind or any medium. How is that possible?
Wookie B writes:
I never indicated that someone else should be able to "figure it out" again.
You said in this very post that "the information is external, imprinted on matter". If Shakespeare could somehow interpret that information from the matter, why can't somebody else do the same thing?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by WookieeB, posted 05-25-2020 4:29 PM WookieeB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by WookieeB, posted 05-25-2020 8:38 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 255 of 452 (876719)
05-26-2020 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by WookieeB
05-25-2020 8:38 PM


WookieB writes:
The information is abstract, not determined by the matter
You're making that assumption but you have not shown that that is true.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by WookieeB, posted 05-25-2020 8:38 PM WookieeB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by WookieeB, posted 05-26-2020 7:13 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 257 of 452 (876730)
05-26-2020 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by WookieeB
05-26-2020 7:13 PM


Wookie B writes:
But it is also an assumption by you that it is determined by the matter.
That's the normal default assumption. We assume that there are no unicorns until there is evidence that there are unicorns.
Wookie B writes:
I suppose I'm taking a more parsimonious position based on the lack of evidence that information is determined by the matter.
You have it backwards. The more parsimonious position is that the matter is simply arranged as it is - i.e. there is no voodoo information "engraved" on it.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by WookieeB, posted 05-26-2020 7:13 PM WookieeB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by WookieeB, posted 05-27-2020 10:21 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 260 of 452 (876748)
05-27-2020 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by WookieeB
05-27-2020 10:21 AM


Wookie B writes:
You, and others, have inferred that it comes solely from the laws of matter. That is the unicorn.
No.
We know that matter exists. We do NOT know that there is any "information" independent of the matter. The unicorn, which does not exist, is the mysterious source of independent information. That's YOUR UNICORN. We have no evidence that that exists.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by WookieeB, posted 05-27-2020 10:21 AM WookieeB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by WookieeB, posted 05-27-2020 2:55 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 265 of 452 (876761)
05-27-2020 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by WookieeB
05-27-2020 2:55 PM


WookieB writes:
You are moving the goal-posts. We are not discussing what you refer to as 'my unicorn': the source of independent information...
Not at all. For the purpose of this discussion, what matters is whether or not that independent information exists. You need to provide evidence that it does.
Wookie B writes:
Being that information is an abstract thing that can be symbolized on matter (yes even outside the brain), I do not see any evidence (unicorn) that it is determined by the matter.
That's circular: assuming that information is independent from matter, you conclude that information is independent from matter.
Wookie B writes:
Since your claim is dependent on evidence, and my claim is dependent on no evidence, the onus is on you to provide the evidence.
There is no evidence, which is my claim. You need to provide evidence that information is independent from matter.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by WookieeB, posted 05-27-2020 2:55 PM WookieeB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by WookieeB, posted 05-27-2020 6:14 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 274 of 452 (876795)
05-28-2020 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by WookieeB
05-27-2020 6:14 PM


Wookie B writes:
Whereas your last prior post stated the subject was about the source of independent information, as I pointed out the subject wasn't about the source, but that independent information exists.
The two are inextricably intertwined. If something exists, it has a source.
Wookie B writes:
The information that distinctly makes up Macbeth, did exist in the mind of Shakespeare.
You have not provided any evidence about how the information got there - i.e. the source. My contention is that it was created in situ, in Shakespeare's brain. Your claim is that it had some abstract existence independent of Shakespeare's brain. You need to support that claim.
Wookie B writes:
There is no evidence that meaningful information is dependent on matter.
Again, you have it backwards. We have no evidence that information is independent from matter. We have no evidence of unicorns. Same thing.
Wookie B writes:
So, if your claim is that there is no evidence that information is 'not dependent' on matter, that means there is evidence that information is not 'not dependent' on matter, or that there is evidence that information is dependent on matter.
Seriously, do you think that pile of multiple negatives makes any sense?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by WookieeB, posted 05-27-2020 6:14 PM WookieeB has not replied

  
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