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Author Topic:   NvC-1: What is the premise of Naturalism in Biology?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7614
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 166 of 240 (876487)
05-21-2020 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by GDR
05-20-2020 6:00 PM


GDR writes:

Humans can distinguish that the daffodil is different than the rose. Humans have that information, and then assign a name to the plants. Humans are simply naming the uniqueness of the daffodil.

The object and the information humans have created about the object are separate and independent.

The daffodil is the national flower of Wales and is worn on St David's day which is the 1st March. How did the daffodil have that information about itself?

Different people have different names for the same plants. The word 'cilantro' would convey no information to most UK people but the word 'coriander' would. Yet they describe the same plant.

I know that the terms cilantro and coriander refer to the same plant. This gives me more information than those that don't, yet the plant is the same. The man that counts the onions in the field has more information than the man that just sees the onions. Counting the onions creates the information.

All this should tell you that the information is not the same as the object.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by GDR, posted 05-20-2020 6:00 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by GDR, posted 05-21-2020 11:54 AM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18096
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 167 of 240 (876492)
05-21-2020 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by GDR
05-20-2020 6:00 PM


GDR writes:

Humans can distinguish that the daffodil is different than the rose. Humans have that information, and then assign a name to the plants. Humans are simply naming the uniqueness of the daffodil.


What you're saying is that humans manufacture information. They don't "discover" it.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by GDR, posted 05-20-2020 6:00 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by GDR, posted 05-21-2020 11:56 AM ringo has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 168 of 240 (876493)
05-21-2020 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by AZPaul3
05-21-2020 12:21 AM


AZPaul3 writes:

We say we gather information from the world. In reality our senses create the information as streams of particles to be perceived within our minds. The world doesn't know the information of petal, stem, yellow, DNA, physics, forces. Our minds do.


As you start off that sentence I see you getting it right. We gather information. It is there to be gathered. Our minds perceive and then process the information gathered.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by AZPaul3, posted 05-21-2020 12:21 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by AZPaul3, posted 05-21-2020 1:32 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 169 of 240 (876496)
05-21-2020 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Tangle
05-21-2020 2:55 AM


The name we assign to a plant or anything else is simply putting a name to the information we receive.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Tangle, posted 05-21-2020 2:55 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Tangle, posted 05-21-2020 12:13 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 170 of 240 (876497)
05-21-2020 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by ringo
05-21-2020 11:37 AM


ringo writes:

What you're saying is that humans manufacture information. They don't "discover" it.

I'm saying that humans interpret the information they discover.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by ringo, posted 05-21-2020 11:37 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by ringo, posted 05-21-2020 12:00 PM GDR has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18096
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 171 of 240 (876499)
05-21-2020 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by GDR
05-21-2020 11:56 AM


GDR writes:

I'm saying that humans interpret the information they discover.


You keep mentioning humans. Without humans there is no information.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by GDR, posted 05-21-2020 11:56 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by GDR, posted 05-21-2020 12:27 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7614
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 172 of 240 (876500)
05-21-2020 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by GDR
05-21-2020 11:54 AM


GDR writes:

The name we assign to a plant or anything else is simply putting a name to the information we receive.

Correct, we create the name of the plant and that becomes information about that plant. Of course without the plant I can't create information about it but the plant is not the information, it's the object of the information.

“A host of golden daffodils” was the creation of a human mind that was wandering as lonely as a cloud, not the creation of the object that Wordworth's mind came upon.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by GDR, posted 05-21-2020 11:54 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by GDR, posted 05-21-2020 12:32 PM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 173 of 240 (876504)
05-21-2020 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by ringo
05-21-2020 12:00 PM


ringo writes:

You keep mentioning humans. Without humans there is no information.

I was quoting your use of humans. Are you saying that prior to human existence nothing existed?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by ringo, posted 05-21-2020 12:00 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by ringo, posted 05-21-2020 12:40 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 174 of 240 (876505)
05-21-2020 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Tangle
05-21-2020 12:13 PM


Tangle writes:

Correct, we create the name of the plant and that becomes information about that plant. Of course without the plant I can't create information about it but the plant is not the information, it's the object of the information.

It is object of the information that we perceive.

Tangle writes:

“A host of golden daffodils” was the creation of a human mind that was wandering as lonely as a cloud, not the creation of the object that Wordworth's mind came upon.

That's not the same thing though as something physical like a daffodil. Certainly we as sentient beings can create new information.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Tangle, posted 05-21-2020 12:13 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Tangle, posted 05-21-2020 1:43 PM GDR has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18096
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 175 of 240 (876507)
05-21-2020 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by GDR
05-21-2020 12:27 PM


GDR writes:

Are you saying that prior to human existence nothing existed?


Of course not. I'm saying that prior to human existence no information existed. Just like no limericks existed.

It's the same argument as saying that DNA contains no mystical code. All it is is an arrangement of atoms that behaves in certain ways depending on the arrangement. "Information" is just the spin that humans put on it.


"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by GDR, posted 05-21-2020 12:27 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by WookieeB, posted 05-21-2020 2:34 PM ringo has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4977
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 176 of 240 (876510)
05-21-2020 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by GDR
05-21-2020 11:46 AM


We gather information. It is there to be gathered.

It is where to be gathered? In what form is this information before it is gathered?


Factio Republicana delenda est.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by GDR, posted 05-21-2020 11:46 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by GDR, posted 05-21-2020 3:56 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7614
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 177 of 240 (876511)
05-21-2020 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by GDR
05-21-2020 12:32 PM


GDR writes:

It is object of the information that we perceive.

Yup. Exactly. Our perception creates the information about the daffodil. We perceive daffodils as a yellow flower on a green stem. That's the daffodil's basic information.

Now suppose that the observer is colour blind and sees daffodils as uniform grey. What has happened to the daffodil's information, has it changed? Or has the observer created different information about the daffodil?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by GDR, posted 05-21-2020 12:32 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by GDR, posted 05-21-2020 3:50 PM Tangle has responded

  
WookieeB
Member
Posts: 112
Joined: 01-18-2019


Message 178 of 240 (876515)
05-21-2020 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by ringo
05-21-2020 12:40 PM


Of course not. I'm saying that prior to human existence no information existed. Just like no limericks existed.

Why humans only? Are you saying that for other non-human minds there is nothing akin to information?

It's the same argument as saying that DNA contains no mystical* code. All it is is an arrangement of atoms that behaves in certain ways depending on the arrangement. "Information" is just the spin that humans put on it.

* - unnecessary word

"depending on the arrangement" is another way of saying "information".

"information" happens to be the word humans speaking English refer to it, but if humans were not around to think it, the effect that "information" has would still have a specific effect. The parts/matter is still there, but the (purposeful) arrangement of those parts has an effect independent of the properties of the matter itself. That is why information is said to be independent from the matter it is transmitted on.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by ringo, posted 05-21-2020 12:40 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by ringo, posted 05-21-2020 4:11 PM WookieeB has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3943
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 179 of 240 (876519)
05-21-2020 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by AZPaul3
05-20-2020 2:02 PM


AZPaul3 writes:

The concepts seem so intuitive yet they become so ephemeral when you try to define them. The hard physics says one thing but each person has their own intuition that can be difficult to overcome.

Even physicists themselves still have disagreements on the definition. There is a small faction of which push the concept that information, in the form of mathematics, is the true underlying reality of the universe and that matter/energy/time are emergent properties of the math.

My confuzzled attempt:

Let's take colour blindness as an example.

We'll start with basic grass (like on a normal lawn in the suburbs.)
-The colour of the grass is what it is (whatever that is...)
-Most will see this as green
-Some with colour blindness might say it's blue
-both use their eyes as created to their human body by nature
-what if the "most people seeing it as green" is also incorrect?
-what part of this is the "information"?

My points:
-it doesn't matter if most see it as green
-it doesn't matter if some see it as blue
-it doesn't matter what we call information
-the grass still is whatever colour it is... regardless of whether we recognize it correctly (either as a whole or in parts.)

If the grass's "colour" can be converted to an objective measurement:
Say "530nm" (the measureable wavelength of "green" light.)
Then... this can be observed and measured by all.
This is what the grass is, under the conditions of the measurement
Some might call 530nm green, others may call 530nm blue... but everyone agrees that the measurement is 530nm.

If we take multiple measurements across vast amounts of time, and the grass is always 530nm... this lends confidence to the following assumptions:
The grass "was 530nm" before we measured it
The grass "will remain 530nm" after we measure it
The grass "was always" 530nm and we only identified it at some point and became aware of it

-whatever part of that you want to call "information" doesn't really matter
-the grass is what it is
-our measurement of the grass is what it is
-our perception of the grass (individually or in groups) is what it is
-our perceptions and measurements always include certain assumptions and it's wise for us to not confuse such assumptions with the grass "being whatever it is."

Not sure if this is applicable to math/information/reality-of-the-universe-as-studied-by-physicists (they're so quirky!)... but it should be applicable to GDR/Tangle's conversation, I think.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by AZPaul3, posted 05-20-2020 2:02 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by GDR, posted 05-21-2020 4:15 PM Stile has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 180 of 240 (876521)
05-21-2020 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Tangle
05-21-2020 1:43 PM


Tangle writes:

Yup. Exactly. Our perception creates the information about the daffodil. We perceive daffodils as a yellow flower on a green stem. That's the daffodil's basic information.

..but if the information wasn't there we couldn't perceive it. Our perception interprets the information.

Tangle writes:

Now suppose that the observer is colour blind and sees daffodils as uniform grey. What has happened to the daffodil's information, has it changed? Or has the observer created different information about the daffodil?

Once again, it is that the observer perceived or interpreted the information differently.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Tangle, posted 05-21-2020 1:43 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Tangle, posted 05-21-2020 4:51 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
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