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Author Topic:   What have we accomplished?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7944
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 181 of 263 (879462)
07-16-2020 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Kleinman
07-16-2020 1:44 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
kleinman writes:

I think a central part of this debate is people trying to justify their atheism.

To whom am I justifying my atheism and why do you think it necessary for me to do so?

Because if there is no god, there is no accountability.

Really, trying hitting policeman, see what happens.

But if we were created, we have accountability to our Creator.

Why? Is a cockroach? A buttercup?

Our hope is that our Creator is perfect in His justise and perfect in His mercy.

Fat chance, according to your book he's an evil bastard that makes Pol Pot look like an amateur.

The atheist does what is right in their own mind no matter how twisted their mind is.

Have you ever met an atheist? Where is this garbage coming from? Show your workings.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Kleinman, posted 07-16-2020 1:44 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Kleinman, posted 07-16-2020 6:36 PM Tangle has responded

Kleinman
Member
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 182 of 263 (879463)
07-16-2020 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Tangle
07-16-2020 5:37 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Kleinman writes:

I think a central part of this debate is people trying to justify their atheism.

Tangle writes:

To whom am I justifying my atheism and why do you think it necessary for me to do so?


You can start with yourself.
Kleinman writes:

Because if there is no god, there is no accountability.

Tangle writes:

Really, trying hitting policeman, see what happens.


There are people murdering policemen now and don't think they will be held account, unless they are caught.
Kleinman writes:

But if we were created, we have accountability to our Creator.

Tangle writes:

Why? Is a cockroach? A buttercup?


Don't you think you have more choices than a cockroach or a buttercup?
Kleinman writes:

Our hope is that our Creator is perfect in His justise and perfect in His mercy.

Tangle writes:

Fat chance, according to your book he's an evil bastard that makes Pol Pot look like an amateur.


Why? Because He tells you not to murder, steal, commit adultery? Then He pays the cost of yours and my accountability?
Kleinman writes:

The atheist does what is right in their own mind no matter how twisted their mind is.

Tangle writes:

Have you ever met an atheist? Where is this garbage coming from? Show your workings.


Sure, and they think that whatever they do is right in their own mind no matter how twisted their minds are. And I am showing you how evolution works including a mathematical explanation and empirical evidence. It really upsets atheists when they hear this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Tangle, posted 07-16-2020 5:37 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Tangle, posted 07-17-2020 3:49 AM Kleinman has responded

Fuckdamods 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 183 of 263 (879486)
07-17-2020 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Kleinman
07-16-2020 1:44 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
I think it's hard for people to believe in Jesus Christ. Believing in Jesus Christ requires suffering in this world. If there was a magical way to discount Jesus, it's no surprise many would leap at it. A life without accountability to Jesus Christ, is a special kind of hell, a cruel animalistic fate.

In a way, the ToE is a fancy name for an animus religion. Returning to an animal state, rejecting human sentience. Living this way is easier, although it is counterfeit, perhaps why so many atheists get cold feet about atheism at the end of life,--and if you don't accept Jesus Christ as God, you may as well be an atheist, because you're equally worthless, and twice as shameful, at least the atheist can claim mental defect before Christ the judge.

Divine Mercy is the gospel and I have hope that even the worst atheist can find redemption in the Blood of Jesus Christ, the Good Shepherd, the only one who can love even the worst sufferer, even the most pitiable human existence.

I would rather have every physical and mental disease at once than be a healthy atheist, because the burden of sin is great upon the spirit, Christ eases the yoke, God is all-loving and all-knowing, and he saved me from a life of hell on earth. He has set us aside and he has asked us to love the least of those among us, among the mentally disabled I see crowns, I see redemption even in the face of brain diseases and the cruelest snares of the evil one.

I would rather die on my feet than be the helpless prey to the devil that the atheists are, although they are largely ignored, the devil hates priests the most, because they are practitioners of the sacraments and our active salvation.

to be an atheist is to be a spectator in the salvation of humanity.

unfortunately for them, life is lived better actively, on the team of Jesus, not as a spectator sport.

the atheist rides the rickety bleachers denying Christ because he is afraid to be himself, a created being, not a molecular skin to be lived out without consequences and discarded like a egg sac

Edited by a servant of Christ, : grammar


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Kleinman, posted 07-16-2020 1:44 PM Kleinman has not yet responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 7944
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 184 of 263 (879491)
07-17-2020 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Kleinman
07-16-2020 6:36 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
kleinman writes:

You can start with yourself.

I did that many years ago. So is that all?

There are people murdering policemen now and don't think they will be held account, unless they are caught.

Well you've accidentally hit upon the point haven't you? If you get caught hitting a policeman, you'll be held to account. If not, you got lucky, society will get you the next time. People account to themselves and society for their actions. There is no other body.

Don't you think you have more choices than a cockroach or a buttercup?

Why is anything responsible to its maker? Any faults in the maker's product are down to the maker.

Why? Because He tells you not to murder, steal, commit adultery?

And yet he commits acts of mass genocide and tell us to do the same.

Then He pays the cost of yours and my accountability?

Well he has no need to on my account, but why and how does he do it on yours?

Sure, and they think that whatever they do is right in their own mind no matter how twisted their minds are.

Liar. You've never even spoken to one have you?

And I am showing you how evolution works including a mathematical explanation and empirical evidence. It really upsets atheists when they hear this.

Look kleinman, nutters like you that think that they know better than all of science but can't get their ideas accepted by real scientists pass through here all the time. We listen for a while, make an evaluation and then most of us walk away. There's nothing much to be done with a delusion.

No matter what you think of yourself, you can't upset an atheist by spouting such nonsense. The best you can hope for is a mild depression for the poverty of the human religious mind.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Kleinman, posted 07-16-2020 6:36 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Kleinman, posted 07-17-2020 6:03 AM Tangle has responded

Kleinman
Member
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 185 of 263 (879498)
07-17-2020 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Tangle
07-17-2020 3:49 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Kleinman writes:

You can start with yourself.

Tangle writes:

I did that many years ago. So is that all?


It didn't take much.
Kleinman writes:

There are people murdering policemen now and don't think they will be held account, unless they are caught.

Tangle writes:

Well you've accidentally hit upon the point, haven't you? If you get caught hitting a policeman, you'll be held to account. If not, you got lucky, society will get you the next time. People account to themselves and society for their actions. There is no other body.


You are certainly sure of yourself.
Kleinman writes:

Don't you think you have more choices than a cockroach or a buttercup?

Tangle writes:

Why is anything responsible to its maker? Any faults in the maker's product are down to the maker.


First you say "there is no other body" and then you say "any faults in the maker's product are down to the maker". So if you use a product in a way it wasn't intended, it's the maker's fault?
Kleinman writes:

Why? Because He tells you not to murder, steal, commit adultery?

Tangle writes:

And yet he commits acts of mass genocide and tell us to do the same.


God even uses the wicked to do his will. But not every act of mass genocide is God's will.
Kleinman writes:

Then He pays the cost of yours and my accountability?

Tangle writes:

Well he has no need to on my account, but why and how does he do it on yours?


Like I said, you are certainly sure of yourself. And the price for sin is blood.
Kleinman writes:

Sure, and they think that whatever they do is right in their own mind no matter how twisted their minds are.

Tangle writes:

Liar. You've never even spoken to one have you?


So you know everyone who I've ever spoke to? You must work for Google and have some powerful tracking software.
Kleinman writes:

And I am showing you how evolution works including a mathematical explanation and empirical evidence. It really upsets atheists when they hear this.

Tangle writes:

Look kleinman, nutters like you that think that they know better than all of science but can't get their ideas accepted by real scientists pass through here all the time. We listen for a while, make an evaluation and then most of us walk away. There's nothing much to be done with a delusion.

No matter what you think of yourself, you can't upset an atheist by spouting such nonsense. The best you can hope for is a mild depression for the poverty of the human religious mind.


What real scientists? Are you talking about the fish-to-mammal aficionados that can't explain the simplest evolution experiments? I certainly know more about evolution than them. It doesn't take much.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Tangle, posted 07-17-2020 3:49 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Tangle, posted 07-17-2020 7:02 AM Kleinman has responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 7944
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 186 of 263 (879499)
07-17-2020 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Kleinman
07-17-2020 6:03 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
kleinman writes:

It didn't take much.

And you know that how?

You are certainly sure of yourself.

I'm certainly sure that's what actually happens. I'm also sure that you have not contradicted it.

First you say "there is no other body"

Sure, I'll say it again just in case you thought I didn't mean it. There is no other body.

and then you say "any faults in the maker's product are down to the maker". So if you use a product in a way it wasn't intended, it's the maker's fault?

And what is your problem with that? If your chair arrives with only 2 legs do you blame yourslf or who made it?

God even uses the wicked to do his will. But not every act of mass genocide is God's will.

Sorry, you can't slime your way out of what it actually says god himself did in your book. Just to name just one genocide - The Flood.

And the price for sin is blood.

Childish nonsense.

What real scientists? Are you talking about the fish-to-mammal aficionados that can't explain the simplest evolution experiments? I certainly know more about evolution than them. It doesn't take much.

If that was actually the case you wouldn't be wasting your time here now would you?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Kleinman, posted 07-17-2020 6:03 AM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Kleinman, posted 07-17-2020 9:20 AM Tangle has responded

Kleinman
Member
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 187 of 263 (879500)
07-17-2020 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Tangle
07-17-2020 7:02 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Kleinman writes:

It didn't take much.

Tangle writes:

And you know that how?


It's not hard to tell how little you know about the science of evolution. You have lots of mythical stories, just no math or physics.
Kleinman writes:

You are certainly sure of yourself.

Tangle writes:

I'm certainly sure that's what actually happens. I'm also sure that you have not contradicted it.


Does that mean you are ready to explain the Kishony and Lenski evolutionary experiments? Let's see you do that with your mythology about Kiwi birds.
Kleinman writes:

First you say "there is no other body"

Tangle writes:

Sure, I'll say it again just in case you thought I didn't mean it. There is no other body.


For someone so certain on this issue, you aren't doing such a good job explaining the science of evolution. And we have good experimental evidence for that issue. So, when are you going to put the wisdom of the universe to work and explain to us the physics and mathematics of evolution?
Kleinman writes:

and then you say "any faults in the maker's product are down to the maker". So if you use a product in a way it wasn't intended, it's the maker's fault?

Tangle writes:

And what is your problem with that? If your chair arrives with only 2 legs do you blame yourslf or who made it?


First you say that there is no God and then you blame the evil in the universe on that God. Maybe the people who do evil should be held to account for that evil. And now you claim that the God that doesn't exist produces manufacturing defects. You really don't want to be held account for the defects you produce, whether they are in manufacturing a chair or explaining evolution.
Kleinman writes:

God even uses the wicked to do his will. But not every act of mass genocide is God's will.

Tangle writes:

Sorry, you can't slime your way out of what it actually says god himself did in your book. Just to name just one genocide - The Flood.


In your mind, no one deserves judgment. No one ever sins. You can't even do your own job and correctly explain the science of evolution. Think of all the people who die of drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments because you don't explain evolution correctly. You have a simple explanation, the God that doesn't exist works in mysterious ways.
Kleinman writes:

And the price for sin is blood.

Tangle writes:

Childish nonsense.


Maybe so. Is that the hope you live by?
Kleinman writes:

What real scientists? Are you talking about the fish-to-mammal aficionados that can't explain the simplest evolution experiments? I certainly know more about evolution than them. It doesn't take much.

Tangle writes:

If that was actually the case you wouldn't be wasting your time here now would you?


So you think that talking with atheists is a waste of time? So, when are you going to explain the Kishony and Lenski evolution experiments. Why don't you use your mythology about Kiwi birds to explain those experiments?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Tangle, posted 07-17-2020 7:02 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Tangle, posted 07-17-2020 10:45 AM Kleinman has not yet responded

PaulK
Member
Posts: 16570
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 188 of 263 (879504)
07-17-2020 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Kleinman
07-16-2020 9:33 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
quote:
There's no point in discussing my model when the mathematically incompetent PaulK doesn't understand the Jukes-Cantor model and what is simulates physically

Then since I know it well enough to correct your errors on a number of occasions it would follow that you are incapable of creating a corrected version. Not least because you don’t understand what it’s meant to model. So that’s an implicit admission that you have nothing.

As for mathematical incompetence:

quote:
Then go a little further down the page and find the paragraph titled "Deriving the dynamics of substitution" and you will find the vector equation:
E = {A,G,C,T}

When I look at that I don’t see a vector equation I see the set of possible states. Why don’t we look at the next line and see what it is?

be the set of possible states for the site, and

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Kleinman, posted 07-16-2020 9:33 AM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Kleinman, posted 07-17-2020 10:53 AM PaulK has responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 7944
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 189 of 263 (879511)
07-17-2020 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Kleinman
07-17-2020 9:20 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
kleinman writes:

It's not hard to tell how little you know about the science of evolution. You have lots of mythical stories, just no math or physics.

You really are a one-trick pony aren't you. We are not talking about evolution, we're talking about atheism. Remember?

Does that mean you are ready to explain the Kishony and Lenski evolutionary experiments? Let's see you do that with your mythology about Kiwi birds.

ditto above.

kleinman writes:

For someone so certain on this issue, you aren't doing such a good job explaining the science of evolution. And we have good experimental evidence for that issue. So, when are you going to put the wisdom of the universe to work and explain to us the physics and mathematics of evolution?

And again. Discussions about atheism and whether there is a supernatural judge have nothing to do with evolution.

Why are you avoiding defending your statements?

First you say that there is no God and then you blame the evil in the universe on that God. Maybe the people who do evil should be held to account for that evil. And now you claim that the God that doesn't exist produces manufacturing defects. You really don't want to be held account for the defects you produce, whether they are in manufacturing a chair or explaining evolution.

I mean, am I supposed to not notice that you're trying to change the subject? Really?

So you think that talking with atheists is a waste of time?

That's not something you've ever done or will ever do. If you actually did, you might learn something. The starting point is that atheism has nothing to do with evolution.

So, when are you going to explain the Kishony and Lenski evolution experiments. Why don't you use your mythology about Kiwi birds to explain those experiments?

Why don't you stop trying to change the subject?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Kleinman, posted 07-17-2020 9:20 AM Kleinman has not yet responded

Kleinman
Member
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 190 of 263 (879512)
07-17-2020 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by PaulK
07-17-2020 10:21 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Kleinman writes:

There's no point in discussing my model when the mathematically incompetent PaulK doesn't understand the Jukes-Cantor model and what is simulates physically

PaulK writes:

Then since I know it well enough to correct your errors on a number of occasions it would follow that you are incapable of creating a corrected version. Not least because you don’t understand what it’s meant to model. So that’s an implicit admission that you have nothing.


You can't even explain the Jukes-Cantor model, you don't understand what a Markov chain process is. You should study the Harvard and MIT lectures videos on YouTube so you might not blow so much stinky smoke.
PaulK writes:

As for mathematical incompetence:

Kleinman writes:

Then go a little further down the page and find the paragraph titled "Deriving the dynamics of substitution" and you will find the vector equation:
E = {A,G,C,T}

PaulK writes:

When I look at that I don’t see a vector equation I see the set of possible states. Why don’t we look at the next line and see what it is?

be the set of possible states for the site, and

That's right you mathematically incompetent numbskull. This Jukes-Cantor Markov process consists of 4 possible states at the particular site that when you multiply that vector by the transition matrix gives the next state of the system. You don't have to parameterize the system to time in order to calculate the transitions of the system. You can simply multiply the state vector by the transition matrix to get the next state of the system, it is a simple recursion relationship. Since it is clear that you don't understand the Harvard and MIT lectures on this subject, watch this example of how you set up and calculate a Markov process by direct matrix multiplication.
Markov Chains - Part 1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by PaulK, posted 07-17-2020 10:21 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by PaulK, posted 07-17-2020 11:03 AM Kleinman has responded

PaulK
Member
Posts: 16570
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 191 of 263 (879515)
07-17-2020 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by Kleinman
07-17-2020 10:53 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
If I was really that dumb you wouldn’t be so scared of posting your alleged model. Or your arguments.

But thank you for providing more evidence that Creationism is just a silly Satan cult.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Kleinman, posted 07-17-2020 10:53 AM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Kleinman, posted 07-17-2020 11:22 AM PaulK has responded

Kleinman
Member
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 192 of 263 (879520)
07-17-2020 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by PaulK
07-17-2020 11:03 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
PaulK writes:

If I was really that dumb you wouldn’t be so scared of posting your alleged model. Or your arguments.


I've already given you so many hints that you should able to post the model yourself. You are just too mathmatically incompetent to do the math yourself. You will have to wait until the paper gets published to see how to do the math. But you won't understand that either. I doubt that many of you fish-to-mammals aficionados will understand the math and physics. You are too busy writing your mythology about evolution.

But I do want to thank you for helping to lift my writers' block.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by PaulK, posted 07-17-2020 11:03 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by PaulK, posted 07-17-2020 11:40 AM Kleinman has responded

PaulK
Member
Posts: 16570
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 193 of 263 (879522)
07-17-2020 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Kleinman
07-17-2020 11:22 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
quote:
I've already given you so many hints that you should able to post the model yourself.

One of the standard Kleinman excuses. In reality you haven’t even thought of a model, otherwise you would know about the problems you’d encounter.

If there is a paper (which I doubt) it will just be your attempts to apply Jukes-Cantor to the question of getting two mutations at once. Which you can do, but it’s hardly going to add much to human knowledge.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Kleinman, posted 07-17-2020 11:22 AM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Kleinman, posted 07-17-2020 12:09 PM PaulK has responded

Kleinman
Member
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 194 of 263 (879525)
07-17-2020 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by PaulK
07-17-2020 11:40 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Kleinman writes:

I've already given you so many hints that you should able to post the model yourself.

PaulK writes:

One of the standard Kleinman excuses. In reality you haven’t even thought of a model, otherwise you would know about the problems you’d encounter.


Of course, I understand the problems I will encounter. They are the same problems that people encountered when they told the flat-earthers that the earth isn't flat. You fish-to-mammals aficionados have been doing the math wrong for so long that you can't even imagine there is a correct way of doing the mathematics of evolution. But I do find it amusing that by correctly banana-picking the gene that you can show that you are related to bananas.
PaulK writes:

If there is a paper (which I doubt) it will just be your attempts to apply Jukes-Cantor to the question of getting two mutations at once. Which you can do, but it’s hardly going to add much to human knowledge.


There's a paper and I added a little more today thanks to you. And maybe it will add a little knowledge to the descendants of bananas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by PaulK, posted 07-17-2020 11:40 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by PaulK, posted 07-17-2020 12:45 PM Kleinman has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 18792
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 195 of 263 (879526)
07-17-2020 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Kleinman
07-16-2020 1:07 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Kleinman writes:

You haven't taken courses in organic and biochemistry, have you?


Yes. I have.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Kleinman, posted 07-16-2020 1:07 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Kleinman, posted 07-17-2020 12:24 PM ringo has responded

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