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Author Topic:   What have we accomplished?
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 226 of 263 (879595)
07-18-2020 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Tangle
07-18-2020 4:54 PM


Kleinman writes:

Don't confuse your delusions with actually seeing things. You fish-to-mammals aficionados definitely haven't presented the correct mathematics for the Kishony and Lenski experiments. And actually, my abacus is made primarily from silicon. And what it says is your notion of fish evolving into mammals is mathematically irrational. What's worse is that your delusions contribute to drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments. You should really stop indoctrinating naive school children with your mathematically irrational mythology. It is harming people. Can't any of you atheists do math?

Tangle writes:

Like I say, anytime you're ready, let's start talking about your faith and my atheism. Stop hiding.


Your faith is blind. Worse than that, your faith is delusional and harmful. You believe that fish evolve into mammals and yet can't explain the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski evolutionary experiments. You aren't a scientist, you are an atheist zealot with a tangled view of evolution. So, what do you want to discuss, your mythical stories about Kiwi birds? Try taking an introductory course in probability theory so that you could learn something about stochastic process such as DNA evolution. High school students can understand that subject.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Tangle, posted 07-18-2020 4:54 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Tangle, posted 07-18-2020 5:31 PM Kleinman has responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 7806
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 227 of 263 (879600)
07-18-2020 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Kleinman
07-18-2020 5:11 PM


kleinman writes:

Your faith is blind. Worse than that, your faith is delusional and harmful.

Well ok, that's a start of sorts.

Can you tell me what my faith is? Try not to make assertions based on no knowledge if you can and if you can't, give it your best shot.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Kleinman, posted 07-18-2020 5:11 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Kleinman, posted 07-18-2020 5:38 PM Tangle has responded

Kleinman
Member
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 228 of 263 (879601)
07-18-2020 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by Tangle
07-18-2020 5:31 PM


Kleinman writes:

Your faith is blind. Worse than that, your faith is delusional and harmful.

Tangle writes:

Well ok, that's a start of sorts.

Can you tell me what my faith is? Try not to make assertions based on no knowledge if you and. If you can't, give it your best shot.


Sure, I've said it many times. In your faith, you believe that fish evolve into mammals while at the same time you can't explain the simplest evolutionary experiments (Kishony and Lenski experiments). Why does it take a billion replications for each adaptive evolutionary step in these experiments?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Tangle, posted 07-18-2020 5:31 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Tangle, posted 07-18-2020 5:53 PM Kleinman has responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 7806
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 229 of 263 (879602)
07-18-2020 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Kleinman
07-18-2020 5:38 PM


kleinman writes:

Sure, I've said it many times. In your faith, you believe that fish evolve into mammals

That's not a great start; that's neither my faith nor my belief, nor is it relevant to what I may or may not believe.

Maybe it's better if you talk about what you actually know. How about what it is that you believe and see if you can do it without mentioning evolution or - I know this is hard for you - maths.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Kleinman, posted 07-18-2020 5:38 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Kleinman, posted 07-18-2020 6:04 PM Tangle has responded

Kleinman
Member
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 230 of 263 (879603)
07-18-2020 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Tangle
07-18-2020 5:53 PM


Kleinman writes:

Sure, I've said it many times. In your faith, you believe that fish evolve into mammals

Tangle writes:

That's not a great start; that's neither my faith nor my belief, nor is it relevant to what I may or may not believe.


Oh? So you don't believe that fish evolve into mammals?
Tangle writes:

Maybe it's better if you talk about what you actually know. How about what it is that you believe and see if you can do it without mentioning evolution or - I know this is hard for you - maths.


My faith tells us to count, that is math. Are you telling us that your faith says you shouldn't count? That's explains why I find it so hard to believe you when you say you are a scientist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Tangle, posted 07-18-2020 5:53 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Tangle, posted 07-18-2020 6:26 PM Kleinman has responded
 Message 233 by kjsimons, posted 07-18-2020 10:36 PM Kleinman has responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 7806
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 231 of 263 (879605)
07-18-2020 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Kleinman
07-18-2020 6:04 PM


kleinman writes:

Oh? So you don't believe that fish evolve into mammals?

Of course not, that's not a matter of belief.

My faith tells us to count, that is math. Are you telling us that your faith says you shouldn't count?

Maths is not a faith kleinman.

That's explains why I find it so hard to believe you when you say you are a scientist.

I'm not a scientist kleinman, I've told you this three times now.

Can you see a pattern here? You're not listening to what people say. Instead you project what you want them to have said.

But never mind all that, tell us about your faith beliefs - your religion.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Kleinman, posted 07-18-2020 6:04 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Kleinman, posted 07-18-2020 6:42 PM Tangle has responded

Kleinman
Member
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 232 of 263 (879608)
07-18-2020 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Tangle
07-18-2020 6:26 PM


Kleinman writes:

Oh? So you don't believe that fish evolve into mammals?

Tangle writes:

Of course not, that's not a matter of belief.


So you think that's a matter of science? What science is that?
Kleinman writes:

My faith tells us to count, that is math. Are you telling us that your faith says you shouldn't count?

Tangle writes:

Maths is not a faith kleinman.


That's right. So why is your faith devoid of math? You have a blind faith.
Kleinman writes:

That's explains why I find it so hard to believe you when you say you are a scientist.

Tangle writes:

I'm not a scientist kleinman, I've told you this three times now.


What was it that you claimed? Didn't you say you had a couple of degrees in the sciences? They must have been very soft sciences without any mathematics. Did they do any kind of accounting in your studies?
Tangle writes:

Can you see a pattern here? You're not listening to what people say. Instead you project what you want them to have said.


There is a pattern in evolution. If you studied some mathematics, you might understand that pattern. Evolution is very easy to understand once you recognize the patterns demonstrated in the Kishony and Lenski experiments.
Tangle writes:

But never mind all that, tell us about your faith beliefs - your religion.


I have, you just are not listening. One of the things my religion tells us to do is count. Do you want me to show you the Bible verses? So, why does your religion tell you not to count?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Tangle, posted 07-18-2020 6:26 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Tangle, posted 07-19-2020 2:50 AM Kleinman has responded

kjsimons
Member
Posts: 699
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 233 of 263 (879610)
07-18-2020 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Kleinman
07-18-2020 6:04 PM


kleinman writes:

Oh? So you don't believe that fish evolve into mammals?


No one believes this, so why do you keep repeating it. As it's been noted several times, fish and mammals are distant cousins not that mammals are decedents of fish. Stop spreading lies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Kleinman, posted 07-18-2020 6:04 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Kleinman, posted 07-19-2020 5:49 AM kjsimons has not yet responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 7806
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 234 of 263 (879613)
07-19-2020 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by Kleinman
07-18-2020 6:42 PM


kleinman writes:

What was it that you claimed? Didn't you say you had a couple of degrees in the sciences?

Having qualifications in scientific subjects does not make people scientists. I do not earn a living as a scientist.

I have, you just are not listening.

Ok, I must have missed that. I assume you are a Christian? What flavour? You appear to accept evolution as a fact at microbial level but I don't understand your position beyond that. It sounds like you're some form of creationist so you could start by telling us how old you think the earth is?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Kleinman, posted 07-18-2020 6:42 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Kleinman, posted 07-19-2020 5:54 AM Tangle has responded

Kleinman
Member
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 235 of 263 (879620)
07-19-2020 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by kjsimons
07-18-2020 10:36 PM


Kleinman writes:

Oh? So you don't believe that fish evolve into mammals?

kjsimons writes:

No one believes this, so why do you keep repeating it. As it's been noted several times, fish and mammals are distant cousins not that mammals are decedents of fish. Stop spreading lies.


Don't be stupid, I totally get your point. You are stating that it takes many transitions to genetically transform fish into mammals, millions if not billions of genetic transformations. Why are you so mathematically incompetent that you can't explain the mathematics of a single one of those genetic transformations? And you stop spreading your mathematically irrational nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by kjsimons, posted 07-18-2020 10:36 PM kjsimons has not yet responded

Kleinman
Member
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 236 of 263 (879621)
07-19-2020 5:54 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by Tangle
07-19-2020 2:50 AM


Kleinman writes:

What was it that you claimed? Didn't you say you had a couple of degrees in the sciences?

Tangle writes:

Having qualifications in scientific subjects does not make people scientists. I do not earn a living as a scientist.


So you say you are qualified to be a scientist, you just aren't paid to be one? What makes you think that you are qualified to say that fish evolve into mammals? You aren't a scientist. Do you believe everything that is said to you. If you do, you are very naive.
Kleinman writes:

I have, you just are not listening.

Tangle writes:

Ok, I must have missed that. I assume you are a Christian? What flavour? You appear to accept evolution as a fact at microbial level but I don't understand your position beyond that. It sounds like you're some form of creationist so you could start by telling us how old you think the earth is?


You must think I'm a Christian for the same reason I think you are an atheist. And I do accept that evolution occurs and based on my scientific training and experience, I write papers explaining the physics and mathematics of the phenomenon, something you should learn about if you think that fish evolve into mammals. What does your religion have against counting? Because that is what you must do to understand evolution. What makes you think that evolution works any different on the microbial level than with more complex replicators? Isn't adaptation by DNA evolution simply the accumulation of specific mutations that improve fitness for those replicators to the environmental selection conditions and it doesn't matter whether it is a lineage of bacteria or a lineage of fish?

And I've never done any scientific study on the age of the earth. Sorry, I'm not trained or paid to be a speculator. I leave that kind of work to the fish-to-mammals aficionados.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Tangle, posted 07-19-2020 2:50 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Tangle, posted 07-19-2020 7:03 AM Kleinman has responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 7806
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 237 of 263 (879623)
07-19-2020 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Kleinman
07-19-2020 5:54 AM


kleinman writes:

So you say you are qualified to be a scientist, you just aren't paid to be one?

No, I don't say that. I just say I have some science qualifications.

What makes you think that you are qualified to say that fish evolve into mammals? You aren't a scientist.

I don't say that kleinman, you say that and I'm not interested in it.

You must think I'm a Christian for the same reason I think you are an atheist.

I don't know what that means - if anything. I think you're a Christian because you've mentioned that you're prepared to quote from the bible. Am I wrong? I'd rather work from fact than conjecture.

And you don't have to wonder about whether I'm an atheist or not, I am. And my atheism has nothing to do with evolution.

And I do accept that evolution occurs and based on my scientific training and experience. Isn't adaptation by DNA evolution simply the accumulation of specific mutations that improve fitness for those replicators to the environmental selection conditions and it doesn't matter whether it is a lineage of bacteria or a lineage of fish?

Something like that yes, but you don't appear to accept speciation - merely changes within species. Is that right?

And I've never done any scientific study on the age of the earth. Sorry, I'm not trained or paid to be a speculator. I leave that kind of work to the fish-to-mammals aficionados.

I didn't ask that, I just ask whether you think the earth is young or old. It's quite a simple question to answer. I think it's old, what do you think?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Kleinman, posted 07-19-2020 5:54 AM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Kleinman, posted 07-19-2020 8:46 AM Tangle has responded

Kleinman
Member
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 238 of 263 (879625)
07-19-2020 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by Tangle
07-19-2020 7:03 AM


Kleinman writes:

So you say you are qualified to be a scientist, you just aren't paid to be one?

Tangle writes:

No, I don't say that. I just say I have some science qualifications.


What scientific qualifications do you have to claim that fish evolving into mammals is a scientific fact? What physical laws, what mathematical principles substantiate your claim?
Kleinman writes:

What makes you think that you are qualified to say that fish evolve into mammals? You aren't a scientist.

Tangle writes:

I don't say that kleinman, you say that and I'm not interested in it.


You would be if you wanted to understand how drug-resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. You just want to blame God for everything wrong in the world.
Kleinman writes:

You must think I'm a Christian for the same reason I think you are an atheist.

Tangle writes:

I don't know what that means - if anything. I think you're a Christian because you've mentioned that you're prepared to quote from the bible. Am I wrong? I'd rather work from fact than conjecture.


What makes you think that someone quoting from the Bible is Christian? Lots of atheists (and those who rebel from God) like to quote from the Bible. Their favorite verse is the "judge not" verse. And you aren't interested in fact, otherwise, you would attempt to understand the Kishony and Lenski experiments.
Tangle writes:

And you don't have to wonder about whether I'm an atheist or not, I am. And my atheism has nothing to do with evolution.


Then why do you blame God for all the evil in the world? Perhaps in your twisted logic, evil has a selective advantage? Oh, that's right, you aren't interested in evolution.
Kleinman writes:

And I've never done any scientific study on the age of the earth. Sorry, I'm not trained or paid to be a speculator. I leave that kind of work to the fish-to-mammals aficionados.

Tangle writes:

I didn't ask that, I just ask whether you think the earth is young or old. It's quite a simple question to answer. I think it's old, what do you think?


Sorry, I haven't really thought about that question. I've put my thought time into understanding how evolution works. And the scientific explanation of evolution is completely different than that presented by the fish-to-mammals aficionados. And the fish-to-mammals aficionados' explanation not only is wrong, but it is also harmful leading to drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments. And that isn't conjecture, that is fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Tangle, posted 07-19-2020 7:03 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Tangle, posted 07-19-2020 9:09 AM Kleinman has responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 7806
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 239 of 263 (879626)
07-19-2020 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by Kleinman
07-19-2020 8:46 AM


kleinman writes:

You just want to blame God for everything wrong in the world.

I'm an atheist...blaming god doesn't really work for me.

What makes you think that someone quoting from the Bible is Christian? Lots of atheists (and those who rebel from God) like to quote from the Bible. Their favorite verse is the "judge not" verse. And you aren't interested in fact, otherwise, you would attempt to understand the Kishony and Lenski experiments.

Again, am I supposed to not notice you changing the subject and avoiding a direct question? I really don't care if you're a lapsed pagan; I'm just asking what your beliefs are - if any.

Then why do you blame God for all the evil in the world?

You are terribly confused about this. How do you think an atheist can blame god for anything?

Sorry, I haven't really thought about that question.

That's an incredibly disingenuous answer. I don't believe it for a minute. You seriously have no opinion about whether the earth is billions of years old or 6,000? Really? I was under the impression that you thought yourself a scientist?

So despite all your words, you've told me nothing about your religious beliefs, nor answered my question about speciation. Why so shy?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Kleinman, posted 07-19-2020 8:46 AM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Kleinman, posted 07-19-2020 9:48 AM Tangle has responded

Kleinman
Member
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 240 of 263 (879628)
07-19-2020 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Tangle
07-19-2020 9:09 AM


Kleinman writes:

You just want to blame God for everything wrong in the world.

Tangle writes:

I'm an atheist...blaming god doesn't really work for me.


Sure it does. Remember when you said this Message 181?
Tangle writes:

Fat chance, according to your book he's an evil bastard that makes Pol Pot look like an amateur.


The Bible says nothing like this. Of course, if you think it does, you would point out the verse(s).
Kleinman writes:

What makes you think that someone quoting from the Bible is Christian? Lots of atheists (and those who rebel from God) like to quote from the Bible. Their favorite verse is the "judge not" verse. And you aren't interested in fact, otherwise, you would attempt to understand the Kishony and Lenski experiments.

Tangle writes:

Again, am I supposed to not notice you changing the subject and avoiding a direct question? I really don't care if you're a lapsed pagan; I'm just asking what your beliefs are - if any.


I'm not the one changing the subject. I started my discussions on this forum debating the physics and mathematics of evolution. It is you who doesn't have either the scientific or mathematical training to discuss this subject and is trying to change the subject. I really don't blame you for doing this because if you actually tried to discuss and debate evolution, it would reveal how ignorant you are of the topic. Do all atheists believe that counting is of no consequence? Because in my faith, we are told to count.
Kleinman writes:

Then why do you blame God for all the evil in the world?

Tangle writes:

You are terribly confused about this. How do you think an atheist can blame god for anything?


So, who do blame for the evil in the world? Did you ever consider yourself?
Kleinman writes:

Sorry, I haven't really thought about that question.

Tangle writes:

That's an incredibly disingenuous answer. I don't believe it for a minute. You seriously have no opinion about whether the earth is billions of years old or 6,000? Really? I was under the impression that you thought yourself a scientist?


Whether you think it is disingenuous or not, it's a fact. I have not done any kind of scientific study on the age of the earth. And I am a scientist, it just happens that my area of study is the physics and mathematics of evolution. So, do you think that fish evolving into mammals is an opinion of yours or is it a scientific fact? And if you think it is a scientific fact, what is the science behind your claim? Now don't change the subject!
Tangle writes:

So despite all your words, you've told me nothing about your religious beliefs, nor answered my question about speciation. Why so shy?


Don't be silly. I've told you lots about my religious beliefs. For example, my religion tell us to count. And I've applied those principles to evolution and published papers explaining DNA evolution and the mathematics governing that phenomenon. It is you who doesn't explain how fish evolve into mammals. In fact, you can't even explain correctly a single base evolutionary transition. Exactly what areas of science are you qualified in?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Tangle, posted 07-19-2020 9:09 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Tangle, posted 07-19-2020 11:35 AM Kleinman has responded

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