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Author Topic:   What have we accomplished?
ringo
Member
Posts: 18511
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 241 of 263 (879629)
07-19-2020 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Kleinman
07-18-2020 1:45 PM


Kleinman writes:

The multiplication rule of probabilities is not a mantra, it is a mathematical fact of life.


The mantra is "fish-to-mammal aficionado".

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Kleinman, posted 07-18-2020 1:45 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Kleinman, posted 07-19-2020 10:34 AM ringo has responded

Kleinman
Member
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 242 of 263 (879633)
07-19-2020 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by ringo
07-19-2020 10:11 AM


Kleinman writes:

The multiplication rule of probabilities is not a mantra, it is a mathematical fact of life.

ringo writes:

The mantra is "fish-to-mammal aficionado".


The multiplication rule of probabilities is the reason you fish-to-mammals aficionados are wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by ringo, posted 07-19-2020 10:11 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 07-19-2020 10:41 AM Kleinman has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 18511
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 243 of 263 (879635)
07-19-2020 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Kleinman
07-19-2020 10:34 AM


Kleinman writes:

The multiplication rule of probabilities is the reason you fish-to-mammals aficionados are wrong.


Thay's not an excuse for you to keep repeating that silly, childish mantra.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Kleinman, posted 07-19-2020 10:34 AM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Kleinman, posted 07-19-2020 11:00 AM ringo has responded

Kleinman
Member
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 244 of 263 (879638)
07-19-2020 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by ringo
07-19-2020 10:41 AM


Kleinman writes:

The multiplication rule of probabilities is the reason you fish-to-mammals aficionados are wrong.

ringo writes:

Thay's not an excuse for you to keep repeating that silly, childish mantra.


I didn't make that one up. But it does a really good job describing those who think that fish evolve into mammals (or even that fish and mammals (and bananas) are distant relatives).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 07-19-2020 10:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by ringo, posted 07-19-2020 3:08 PM Kleinman has not yet responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 7806
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 245 of 263 (879642)
07-19-2020 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Kleinman
07-19-2020 9:48 AM


kleinman writes:

Sure it does. Remember when you said this Message 181?

As you pointed out, but did not register, I said “according to your book...” It's not my book, you do understand the difference? I was pointing out that the god in the book is a genocidal murderer and gave the example of him flooding the earth and killing pretty much everything on it. I did not say that I believed it. But I am wondering if you did. Do you?

I'm not the one changing the subject. I started my discussions on this forum debating the physics and mathematics of evolution.

And you'll notice that this thread is not about that. You seem to want to say the same stuff in every thread you enter regardless of its topic.

So, who do blame for the evil in the world? Did you ever consider yourself?

I don't believe in evil - it's a religious concept and I'm an atheist. But you're deflecting again.

Whether you think it is disingenuous or not, it's a fact. I have not done any kind of scientific study on the age of the earth.

Oh, it's definitely disingenuous and you know it. No one comes to this forum without an opinion on that. Had you genuinely not thought about it and being a real scientist you'd simply say that the scientific consensus is that the earth is old so until something comes along to point out anything different I'll go with that. But nope you're in full shields up mode.

Don't be silly. I've told you lots about my religious beliefs.

Well I must have missed something, humour me, tell me again. Are you a Christian? If so which sort? If not what faith group do you belong to?

This thread is not about evolution or maths, but I would like you to answer my question about speciation because it might help me understand where you're coming from. Why haven't you?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Kleinman, posted 07-19-2020 9:48 AM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Kleinman, posted 07-19-2020 12:17 PM Tangle has responded

Kleinman
Member
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 246 of 263 (879643)
07-19-2020 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Tangle
07-19-2020 11:35 AM


Kleinman writes:

Sure it does. Remember when you said this Message 181?

Tangle writes:

As you pointed out, but did not register, I said “according to your book...” It's not my book, you do understand the difference? I was pointing out that the god in the book is a genocidal murderer and gave the example of him flooding the earth and killing pretty much everything on it. I did not say that I believed it. But I am wondering if you did. Do you?


In case you didn't notice, I quoted you exactly as you wrote it. And what makes you think that you don't deserve what those got in the flood?
Kleinman writes:

I'm not the one changing the subject. I started my discussions on this forum debating the physics and mathematics of evolution.

Tangle writes:

And you'll notice that this thread is not about that. You seem to want to say the same stuff in every thread you enter regardless of its topic.


This thread is about goals and accomplishments. Message 1
Ben! writes:

Decided to revisit the old forum, to poke around and see how well diversity of thought has been supported here.
Things seem fairly similar to 15 years ago when I joined, so wished to ask the question: what are the aims of people here, and has it worked?

Interested to hear stories from anybody who wishes to share, about:


  1. What are your goals in being here? and

  2. Do you feel they've been accomplished?


My goal being here is to correctly describe the physics and mathematics of evolution (the subject of this web site) and I've published multiple papers on the subject. Now, you want to change the subject and talk about the age of the earth. At least you know that you need a lot of time for your silly theory to have any reasonable probability of being true. Since you can't tell us how long it takes for the Kishony and Lenski evolutionary processes to work, perhaps you want to calculate for us the amount of time necessary for fish to evolve into mammals?
Kleinman writes:

So, who do blame for the evil in the world? Did you ever consider yourself?

Tangle writes:

I don't believe in evil - it's a religious concept and I'm an atheist. But you're deflecting again.


But you to believe, whoops, think it is a scientific fact that fish evolve into mammals. Why are you so shy? Why don't you tell us what your scientific training is?
Kleinman writes:

Whether you think it is disingenuous or not, it's a fact. I have not done any kind of scientific study on the age of the earth.

Tangle writes:

Oh, it's definitely disingenuous and you know it. No one comes to this forum without an opinion on that. Had you genuinely not thought about it and being a real scientist you'd simply say that the scientific consensus is that the earth is old so until something comes along to point out anything different I'll go with that. But nope you're in full shields up mode.


You can't explain the physics and mathematics of evolution so you resort to silly claims. If you think I've done scientific studies on the age of the earth, where are these publications on that subject. This is just your lame atheistic way of trying to change the subject from the physics and mathematics of evolution, a subject which you are ignorant of.
Kleinman writes:

Don't be silly. I've told you lots about my religious beliefs.

Tangle writes:

Well I must have missed something, humour me, tell me again. Are you a Christian? If so which sort? If not what faith group do you belong to?


That's not a subject of this thread. The subject of this thread are goals (mine is to correctly explain the physics and mathematics of evolution) and accomplishments (I've published numerous papers on the subject in the last 7 years and more to come). So, tangled mind, what are your goals and what have you accomplished?
Tangle writes:

This thread is not about evolution or maths, but I would like you to answer my question about speciation because it might help me understand where you're coming from. Why haven't you?


So you think this web site is not about evolution and this thread is not about goals and accomplishments. Has anyone ever told you that you have some difficulty with comprehension? What is your goal with believing (or thinking it is scientific fact) that fish evolve into mammals and what scientific work have you accomplished to verify this belief?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Tangle, posted 07-19-2020 11:35 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Tangle, posted 07-19-2020 1:04 PM Kleinman has responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 7806
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 247 of 263 (879647)
07-19-2020 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Kleinman
07-19-2020 12:17 PM


Kleinman writes:

In case you didn't notice, I quoted you exactly as you wrote it. And what makes you think that you don't deserve what those got in the flood?

I wonder, will you ever answer a straight question with a straight answer? Your reply is the usual repetitive deflection and evasion.

I'm forced to conclude that you are a Young Earth Christian, a special creationist and that you believe that the flood was a real event.

But please, correct me if I'm wrong.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Kleinman, posted 07-19-2020 12:17 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Kleinman, posted 07-19-2020 1:24 PM Tangle has responded

Kleinman
Member
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 248 of 263 (879650)
07-19-2020 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Tangle
07-19-2020 1:04 PM


Kleinman writes:

In case you didn't notice, I quoted you exactly as you wrote it. And what makes you think that you don't deserve what those got in the flood?

Tangle writes:

I wonder, will you ever answer a straight question with a straight answer? Your reply is the usual repetitive deflection and evasion.

I'm forced to conclude that you are a Young Earth Christian, a special creationist and that you believe that the flood was a real event.


How can I make my answers any more straight. My goal is to correctly describe the physics and mathematics of evolution and I've accomplished this by having numerous papers peer-reviewed and published on this topic including the correct mathematical description of the Lenski and Kishony evolutionary experiments. I understand that your pseudo-scientific indoctrination doesn't allow you to believe this but if you think I'm wrong, please point to the specific errors either in the physics, the mathematics or both.
Tangle writes:

But please, correct me if I'm wrong.


I have tried to correct your confusion on the physics and mathematics of evolution but you persist on wanting to change the subject. You really should try to stay on topic, you might learn something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Tangle, posted 07-19-2020 1:04 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Tangle, posted 07-19-2020 2:19 PM Kleinman has responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 7806
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 249 of 263 (879653)
07-19-2020 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Kleinman
07-19-2020 1:24 PM


kleinman writes:

How can I make my answers any more straight.

By answering them. They're really simple questions that do not involve mathematics or science. They're about your beliefs.

My goal is to correctly describe the physics and mathematics of evolution and I've accomplished this by having numerous papers peer-reviewed and published on this topic including the correct mathematical description of the Lenski and Kishony evolutionary experiments.

Or how about you do that in one of the many other threads you're posting in and leave this one to talk about other things? Is that possible for you?

I have tried to correct your confusion on the physics and mathematics of evolution but you persist on wanting to change the subject. You really should try to stay on topic, you might learn something.

I'm not interested in your physics and mathematics of evolution, I'm not qualified to participate - others are, I'll leave it to them. Here I'm trying to talk to you about beliefs. And you're avoiding it. I have to wonder why.

So you don't deny that you are a special creationist YEC and a biblical literalist. OK, that explains quite a lot, thank you I think.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Kleinman, posted 07-19-2020 1:24 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Kleinman, posted 07-19-2020 3:16 PM Tangle has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 18511
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 250 of 263 (879655)
07-19-2020 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Kleinman
07-19-2020 11:00 AM


Kleinman writes:

I didn't make that one up.


If doesn't matter who made it up. You should be mature enough not to keep repeating it.

Kleinman writes:

But it does a really good job describing those who think that fish evolve into mammals....


It really doesn't.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Kleinman, posted 07-19-2020 11:00 AM Kleinman has not yet responded

Kleinman
Member
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 251 of 263 (879656)
07-19-2020 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Tangle
07-19-2020 2:19 PM


Kleinman writes:

How can I make my answers any more straight.

Tangle writes:

By answering them. They're really simple questions that do not involve mathematics or science. They're about your beliefs.


Why have you lost interest in discussing the physics and mathematics of evolution? Is it that you can't justify your beliefs?
Kleinman writes:

My goal is to correctly describe the physics and mathematics of evolution and I've accomplished this by having numerous papers peer-reviewed and published on this topic including the correct mathematical description of the Lenski and Kishony evolutionary experiments.

Tangle writes:

Or how about you do that in one of the many other threads you're posting in and leave this one to talk about other things? Is that possible for you?


I've posted in very few threads, only about 5. And the reason why I joined the discussion on this thread is that you accused Phat of not understanding science. Message 75
Tangle writes:

I don't think you and your kind properly understand science. Well actually I know you don't.


I think it is you who does not properly understand science. The facts have changed and you don't have the capability to change your mind. That's why you continue to try to change the subject. Answer this question and it is on topic. What is your scientific explanation for fish evolving into mammals?
Kleinman writes:

I have tried to correct your confusion on the physics and mathematics of evolution but you persist on wanting to change the subject. You really should try to stay on topic, you might learn something

Tangle writes:

I'm not interested in your physics and mathematics of evolution, I'm not qualified to participate - others are, I'll leave it to them. Here I'm trying to talk to you about beliefs. And you're avoiding it. I have to wonder why.


Well duh. Everyone knows you have no scientific understanding of the physics and mathematics of evolution. None of you fish-to-mammal aficionados have demonstrated any qualifications on this subject. I wonder why you have lost interest in discussing science. Come one, tell us why your kind think that fish evolve into mammals? Oh, that's right, you aren't qualified. Is there someone on this forum that is qualified?
Tangle writes:

So you don't deny that you are a special creationist YEC and a biblical literalist. OK, that explains quite a lot, thank you I think.


Ok Tangle, prepare yourself, I'm going to give you a straight answer. I am not a fish-to-mammals aficionado. That would be scientifically and mathematically irrational. Are there any atheists with some proficiency with math on this forum?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Tangle, posted 07-19-2020 2:19 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Tangle, posted 07-19-2020 3:39 PM Kleinman has responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 7806
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 252 of 263 (879660)
07-19-2020 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Kleinman
07-19-2020 3:16 PM


kleinman writes:

Ok Tangle, prepare yourself, I'm going to give you a straight answer.

And then you don't.

That's ok, we now know you to be the usual dishonest creationist only you have the added dishonour of not having the courage or conviction of your beliefs.

Your cock has crowed more than three times. You should be ashamed of yourself.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Kleinman, posted 07-19-2020 3:16 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Kleinman, posted 07-19-2020 4:21 PM Tangle has responded

Kleinman
Member
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 253 of 263 (879661)
07-19-2020 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Tangle
07-19-2020 3:39 PM


Kleinman writes:

Ok Tangle, prepare yourself, I'm going to give you a straight answer.

Tangle writes:

And then you don't.


You mean that admitting that I'm not a fish-to-mammal aficionado is not a straight answer? I'm so disappointed in you!
Tangle writes:

That's ok, we now know you to be the usual dishonest creationist only you have the added dishonour of not having the courage or conviction of your beliefs.


What's dishonest about admitting I'm not a fish-to-mammal aficionado? It's the truth. So what is it that makes you "think you and your kind (whatever your imagination thinks that kind is) properly understand science. Well actually I know you don't." When it is you that admits you don't understand science. Do you remember when you said this in Message 12?
Tangle writes:

Not sure why I'm still here really. I haven't learned anything new for years. Mostly habit I guess.
As far as I'm aware, nobody has changed their minds about anything; most have hardened.


Why don't you give it a shot and try to learn introductory probability theory? The subject really isn't that difficult. You might surprise yourself.
Tangle writes:

Your cock has crowed more than three times. You should be ashamed of yourself.


You should read that story more carefully. Peter denied Christ 3 times. I'm only denying a mathematically irrational theory (many more than 3 times) and if you understood introductory probability theory, so would you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Tangle, posted 07-19-2020 3:39 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Tangle, posted 07-19-2020 5:51 PM Kleinman has responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 7806
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 254 of 263 (879664)
07-19-2020 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Kleinman
07-19-2020 4:21 PM


kleinman writes:

You should read that story more carefully. Peter denied Christ 3 times.

And you have had many more chances to declare your beliefs but you're denying your Christ right now aren't you?

You're yet another creationist crank, special only because you're too ashamed of your beliefs to admit to them here.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Kleinman, posted 07-19-2020 4:21 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Kleinman, posted 07-19-2020 6:11 PM Tangle has responded

Kleinman
Member
Posts: 528
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 255 of 263 (879666)
07-19-2020 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Tangle
07-19-2020 5:51 PM


Kleinman writes:

You should read that story more carefully. Peter denied Christ 3 times.

Tangle writes:

And you have had many more chances to declare your beliefs but you're denying your Christ right now aren't you?


I'm certainly denying the fish-to-mammals myth. And I do that with good scientific evidence and mathematical reasoning. Do you have any scientific basis for your atheism? If you do, what is it?
Tangle writes:

You're yet another creationist crank, special only because you're too ashamed of your beliefs to admit to them here.


Maybe so, but at least I understand the physics and mathematics of evolution and you don't. Your atheism is based on blind faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Tangle, posted 07-19-2020 5:51 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Tangle, posted 07-19-2020 6:29 PM Kleinman has responded
 Message 258 by ringo, posted 07-19-2020 7:59 PM Kleinman has responded

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