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Author Topic:   What have we accomplished?
Phat
Member
Posts: 14132
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 16 of 41 (877175)
06-07-2020 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Ben!
05-29-2020 7:00 AM


PhD in Anthropogeny Leads To Some Phat Questions
So my curiosity got the best of me and I had to look up Anthropogeny. I suppose that there is a point along the evolutionary chain where a Bonobo or an early biological ancestor of ancient and modern-day humans actually became a Homo Sapiens proper. Perhaps it was at this point that hypothetically a Creator of all seen and unseen could join that stream and commune with His little creations apart from simply communing as basic animal instinct. After all, would some Dolphins or Great Apes get to a point before Homo Sapiens where they would ponder their own instincts? And as we ponder the musings of ancient goat herders, as religiously inclined humans are referred as, might we consider the possibility that the gods they "made up" might have all been products of their imagination until (and unless) at some point the "living instinct" or the human character of a Creator of all seen and unseen was finally found..(or at least they so imagined) and began to influence their thoughts and deepest yearnings and wishes.

  • Though my critics and ideological challengers here at EvC will point out that there are far more encounters with human imagined godlike characters throughout all ancestral civilizations, I am proposing that an actual candidate exists among these imaginations which developed into the modern religious belief(s) which humanity has today. And of course, being as certain as I am that I am part of the group which communes with the Real One, I assert that this Real One has as a goal mental and spiritual communion with all of the human species at some point. What happens after that is anyone's guess.

    Wiki writes:

    So anthropology is the study of humans and anthropogeny, is the study of what humans 'gave birth to', to its core definition, although there have been many confusions by those who do not really have an understanding of the word's origins.


  • My third question is to ask you what you think is the answer as to whether humans simply made any and all gods up or whether there is a possibility that at least some of us have made contact with the Real One.

    Edited by Phat, : fixed a few grammar mistakes and misspellings.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 11 by Ben!, posted 05-29-2020 7:00 AM Ben! has not yet responded

      
    driewerf
    Junior Member
    Posts: 12
    Joined: 08-14-2010


    (1)
    Message 17 of 41 (877216)
    06-08-2020 1:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Ben!
    05-24-2020 2:55 PM


    With 9 posts between 2010 and now I can't say I have been a prolific poster. So first a little bit about my background. I live in Belgium, Europe where virtually nobody has heared of creationism. I remember tat I read about it for the first time in my student years, when i read Stephen Jay Gould's "panda's thumb". It was a shock, to say the least. I looked stuff up on the Internet, soon landed on Drdino.com and what i saw there was even worse than what I had in mind from Gould's description of creationism. Watching creationist clips on Youtube, or debates between Hovind and Aron Ra, or King Crocoduck showed me creationism's true face.
    I have an account here, on christianforums.com and evolutionfairytale.com.

    Why? Because I was curious what the average creationist had to say. I was so baffled by the stupidity of the arguments of "professional creationists", that I wanted to watch the grass root creationist.

    So yes, I have learned a lot about the mouvement and the people in it. I just don't know if ignorance couldn't have been a bliss this time.

    Edited by driewerf, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Ben!, posted 05-24-2020 2:55 PM Ben! has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 18 by Tangle, posted 06-08-2020 2:57 PM driewerf has not yet responded
     Message 27 by mike the wiz, posted 07-04-2020 6:18 AM driewerf has not yet responded

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 7710
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 18 of 41 (877217)
    06-08-2020 2:57 PM
    Reply to: Message 17 by driewerf
    06-08-2020 1:59 PM


    The USA can be a surprisingly parochial place, many of their beliefs seem to be about 50 years behind NorthernEurope and seem utterly bizarrely to most of us here.

    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 17 by driewerf, posted 06-08-2020 1:59 PM driewerf has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 21 by Phat, posted 06-30-2020 10:34 AM Tangle has responded

      
    a servant of Christ
    Member
    Posts: 1739
    Joined: 01-12-2004


    Message 19 of 41 (878406)
    06-29-2020 5:15 PM


    nothing.

    you have the 3 ring circus of azpaul3, ringo, and tangle.

    then you have phat and jar arguing with each other ad infinitum.

    I guess all this place shows is that if you condescend to the people you want to reach out to, eventually no one will listen.

    besides those 5 users basically talking at the wall here, what is left here?

    besides concern trolling DJT's presidency.

    RIP to the dead greats that made this place great. robinrohan, buz, razd, asgara

    Edited by a servant of Christ, : No reason given.

    Edited by a servant of Christ, : No reason given.


    Replies to this message:
     Message 20 by Phat, posted 06-30-2020 10:28 AM a servant of Christ has not yet responded
     Message 24 by ringo, posted 07-01-2020 11:47 AM a servant of Christ has not yet responded
     Message 26 by AZPaul3, posted 07-02-2020 3:50 AM a servant of Christ has not yet responded
     Message 28 by mike the wiz, posted 07-04-2020 6:30 AM a servant of Christ has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14132
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 20 of 41 (878445)
    06-30-2020 10:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 19 by a servant of Christ
    06-29-2020 5:15 PM


    R.I.P. Chris Says Something Wise
    RIP to the dead greats that made this place great. robinrohan, buz, razd, asgara
    Death causes all of us to ponder our own mortality especially when it is someone close to us. Its a fact of life that social media has become simply another medium of human interaction. Its easy to troll...I've often written a post out of knee-jerk emotionalism without thinking long enough about what I really should have said. We all do.

    EvC serves a useful function in my life. I'm not quite sure if I can articulate what that function is, but I'll get back to you on it.


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 19 by a servant of Christ, posted 06-29-2020 5:15 PM a servant of Christ has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14132
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 21 of 41 (878446)
    06-30-2020 10:34 AM
    Reply to: Message 18 by Tangle
    06-08-2020 2:57 PM


    50 Years Behind
    Tangled "progressive" European writes:

    The USA can be a surprisingly parochial place, many of their beliefs seem to be about 50 years behind Northern Europe and seem utterly bizarrely to most of us here.

    I'll remember this quote for future debate. Trying to put it in some sort of context.

    Ben started this thread asking "What Have We Accomplished"? So I guess my question is : what has Europe accomplished in 50 years that the US needs to learn?


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 18 by Tangle, posted 06-08-2020 2:57 PM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 22 by Tangle, posted 06-30-2020 12:27 PM Phat has responded

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 7710
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 22 of 41 (878455)
    06-30-2020 12:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
    06-30-2020 10:34 AM


    Re: 50 Years Behind
    Phat writes:

    what has Europe accomplished in 50 years that the US needs to learn?

    That would be 200 years and the achievement would be secular humanism and the development social welfare systems and other secular institutions - health, education and criminal justice.

    Of course the USA has similar systems but they seem to be at the extremes of everything. Your primitive Christian beliefs are holding back real social progress. Most of Northern Europe has already dropped the more stupid beliefs and the rest are in decline or have become benign.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 21 by Phat, posted 06-30-2020 10:34 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 23 by Phat, posted 06-30-2020 8:46 PM Tangle has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14132
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 23 of 41 (878517)
    06-30-2020 8:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 22 by Tangle
    06-30-2020 12:27 PM


    Re: 50 Years Behind
    Tangle writes:

    Your primitive Christian beliefs are holding back real social progress. Most of Northern Europe has already dropped the more stupid beliefs and the rest are in decline or have become benign.

    In my opinion, your progressive beliefs will be found to be lacking what we have needed all along: Christ, as exemplified in Christian Beliefs.

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 22 by Tangle, posted 06-30-2020 12:27 PM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 25 by Tangle, posted 07-02-2020 2:09 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18322
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.8


    (1)
    Message 24 of 41 (878552)
    07-01-2020 11:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 19 by a servant of Christ
    06-29-2020 5:15 PM


    a Servant of Christ writes:

    you have the 3 ring circus of azpaul3, ringo, and tangle.


    Thanks for the compliment.

    aServant of Christ writes:

    besides those 5 users basically talking at the wall here, what is left here?


    Once in a while a clown comes in to make everybody laugh.

    a Servant of Christ writes:

    RIP to the dead greats that made this place great. robinrohan, buz, razd, asgara


    Amen.

    "I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 19 by a servant of Christ, posted 06-29-2020 5:15 PM a servant of Christ has not yet responded

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 7710
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 25 of 41 (878588)
    07-02-2020 2:09 AM
    Reply to: Message 23 by Phat
    06-30-2020 8:46 PM


    Re: 50 Years Behind
    Phat writes:

    In my opinion, your progressive beliefs will be found to be lacking

    They're called progressive because they make social progress - they contribute positively to the well-being of humanity.

    Christ, as exemplified in Christian Beliefs.

    Your guy has had 2,000 years to make a difference. I reckon that's long enough to demonstrate beyond all doubt that believing in fictional sky daddies doesn't get much done. The world has moved on Phat; we've grown up, get off your knees and do something useful.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 23 by Phat, posted 06-30-2020 8:46 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 5118
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 3.1


    Message 26 of 41 (878591)
    07-02-2020 3:50 AM
    Reply to: Message 19 by a servant of Christ
    06-29-2020 5:15 PM


    you have the 3 ring circus of azpaul3, ringo, and tangle.

    Whoa! Thanks for the promotion, but that is way insulting to the other two.


    Factio Republicana delenda est.
    I am antifa.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 19 by a servant of Christ, posted 06-29-2020 5:15 PM a servant of Christ has not yet responded

      
    mike the wiz
    Member
    Posts: 4689
    From: u.k
    Joined: 05-24-2003


    Message 27 of 41 (878760)
    07-04-2020 6:18 AM
    Reply to: Message 17 by driewerf
    06-08-2020 1:59 PM


    Driewerf writes:

    It was a shock, to say the least. I looked stuff up on the Internet, soon landed on Drdino.com and what i saw there was even worse than what I had in mind from Gould's description of creationism. Watching creationist clips on Youtube, or debates between Hovind and Aron Ra, or King Crocoduck showed me creationism's true face

    Gould has been dead a while so this would be the genetic fallacy as it wouldn't pertain to today's argument from creation scientists which has grown since the early noughts.

    Did you know creation scientists have addressed the panda's thumb argument? If you think Hovind and Dr Dino are, "creationisms true face" then you are a stereotypical example of an ignorant evolutionist that thinks laymen like Hovind represent the official creationist position.

    Evolutionists always want to pick these people as their examples of creation, what they never want to do is actually read the creationist scientist arguments because they know they won't be able to refute them.

    Anyone can pick the worst arguments as their example of creationism in order to falsely portray that as, "creationism", but it's a lot more difficult and requires true intelligence and knowledge to pick the BEST creation scientists as your example and deal with THEIR arguments.

    Which reveals the truth, that most internet evolutionists are just laymen like you that don't really have the intelligence or science knowledge to address the best of creationism so can only falsely portray creationist as Kent Hovind and the likes.

    What is the geologist creationist model of BEDS, Driewerf? What does that acronym stand for? You are logged on now, can you answer quickly without searching for it? Give me an example of an inselburg argument from geologists. what about progradation in flume experiments? What can you tell me that creationists have argued in regards to the creation facies? What can you tell me about the oldest flat gap and what would that say for creationists, scientifically speaking?

    Conclusion; you know little to nothing about creationist arguments.

    Drewerf writes:

    Why? Because I was curious what the average creationist had to say. I was so baffled by the stupidity of the arguments of "professional creationists", that I wanted to watch the grass root creationist.

    So yes, I have learned a lot about the mouvement and the people in it. I just don't know if ignorance couldn't have been a bliss this time.

    Those aren't the arguments from professional creationists. laymen creationists with little to no knowledge don't represent the official creationist stance, that would be like me judging evolution based on some atheists at EvC forum that shout insults at me and think a crocodilomorph is a character from pokemon.

    You never addressed any arguments from professional creationists. When we discussed whale evolution on evolutionfairytale you didn't understand it well and were refuted fairly easily. Later on for bad behaviour you were banned, because all you could offer like here is question-begging epithets and name-calling.

    All you ever shown was RHETORIC. Like here you simply call the official creationism, "stupid".

    That's all you ever done Driewerf, because you are nothing more than the average atheist troll.

    CONCLUSION: You're a prime example of what most evolutionists seem to be online, people that basically just HATE on creationists and call them names.

    Here is a good example of Driewerf folks, instead of addressing or understanding anything I said properly, here is how he responded to my post, a bunch of insults like in this thread here; (which is all most evolutionists ever seem to do to my mind, offer insults and epithets but nothing of any intellectual merit)

    No Evidence Could Convince Me Evolution Occured

    Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

    Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

    Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 17 by driewerf, posted 06-08-2020 1:59 PM driewerf has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 35 by ringo, posted 07-04-2020 9:53 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

      
    mike the wiz
    Member
    Posts: 4689
    From: u.k
    Joined: 05-24-2003


    Message 28 of 41 (878761)
    07-04-2020 6:30 AM
    Reply to: Message 19 by a servant of Christ
    06-29-2020 5:15 PM


    A servant of Christ writes:

    nothing....
    I guess all this place shows is that if you condescend to the people you want to reach out to, eventually no one will listen.

    I think this is basically true.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 19 by a servant of Christ, posted 06-29-2020 5:15 PM a servant of Christ has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 29 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2020 6:55 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 7710
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 29 of 41 (878763)
    07-04-2020 6:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 28 by mike the wiz
    07-04-2020 6:30 AM


    MtW writes:

    I think this is basically true.

    So do I, nothing can change those determined to remain ignorant. We're not trying to 'reach out' to anyone here, we're just airing the arguments.

    As for "eventually no one will listen". Nobody IS listening. We're just a few rationalists talking to a few nutters. The rest of the world is quietly getting on with forgetting all about the rapidly declining group of creationists that still think like bronze age nomads.

    In a few generations there'll only be a handful of you left shouting "the end is nigh" on street corners in almost forgotten towns watching the tumbleweed roll past.

    I know you think you're very important and all knowing - it seems to be a trait of your kind, to possess knowledge that no-one has - but you're whistling in he wind; no-one is listening except your tiny band of fellow cranks.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 28 by mike the wiz, posted 07-04-2020 6:30 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 30 by Phat, posted 07-04-2020 8:06 AM Tangle has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14132
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 30 of 41 (878766)
    07-04-2020 8:06 AM
    Reply to: Message 29 by Tangle
    07-04-2020 6:55 AM


    Airing The Arguments
    Good morning, O Tangled One. And howdy-do to you also, MTW! The conversations on these boards are sometimes quite entertaining, and I for one will confess that I sometimes actually read them! Of course Tangle and I know somewhat of each other, our respective positions and experiences in life, and from whence we derive at our thought processes. (and since I chose to address this reply specifically to Tangle, I ask Tangle to consider my reply also as addressed to Mikey. He used to be a member here at EvC, you know. )

    First off, Mikey, I did click on your link where you attempted to expose the ignorance of our boy from Europe: Driewerf. Tangle and I tangled earlier about the definition of what progressive beliefs actually were:

    Phat writes:

    In my opinion, your progressive beliefs will be found to be lacking


    Tangle writes:

    They're called progressive because they make social progress - they contribute positively to the well-being of humanity.(...)Your guy has had 2,000 years to make a difference. I reckon that's long enough to demonstrate beyond all doubt that believing in fictional sky daddies doesn't get much done. The world has moved on Phat; we've grown up, get off your knees and do something useful.

    For the record, I encourage Tangle to get on his knees and ask the Creator of all seen and unseen for wisdom!

    Anyway...
    As I was introduced to an entirely new cast of characters from Evolution Fairy Tales I began to size all of them up.I read some of their replies:

    quote:
    • MikeTheWiz, Moderator/member. Age: 36. Christian Creationist--England
    • driewerf(now banned) Age: 43. ( no affiliation) Atheist--Belgium
    • Fjuri,Veteran Member. Age: 31 (no affiliation) Atheist-- Belgium

    The list goes on. And my question to Mike is this: Mike, first of all, one of the primary reasons that EvC Member Faith used to frustrate me so much is because she took what was and is basically a spiritual argument and attempted to add intellectual apologetics to it---which cannot really win. I see you doing much the same thing. Can you share with us what it is that makes your Christian Belief real to you? Because basically at the end of the day, Jesus Christ is alive or He isnt.

    Tangle seems convinced that the whole discussion is incredulous and cant for the life of him entertain any possible notions that Christ is alive and that God is real. Another thing, Mike. Humble yourself. Quit acting like you are irrefutable. Roll with the punches and learn how to argue and persuade more effectively.

    As for you, Tangled One, I'm not sure if anything I say to you will penetrate the intellectual defense you have set up around your ears and "reasoning" mind.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 29 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2020 6:55 AM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 31 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2020 8:21 AM Phat has responded
     Message 36 by Percy, posted 07-04-2020 12:53 PM Phat has responded

      
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