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Author
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Topic: What have we accomplished?
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9600 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.8
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Message 31 of 263 (878767)
07-04-2020 8:21 AM
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Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
07-04-2020 8:06 AM
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Re: Airing The Arguments
Phat writes: As for you, Tangled One, I'm not sure if anything I say to you will penetrate the intellectual defense you have set up around your ears and "reasoning" mind My intellectual defences are very, very easily penetrated; the weakness of the rational mind is that it is open to reason and supporting evidence. Bring some of that instead of your "I believe", irrational pulpit blather and I'll change my mind.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 30 by Phat, posted 07-04-2020 8:06 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 32 by Phat, posted 07-04-2020 8:32 AM | | Tangle has not replied | | | Message 33 by Phat, posted 07-04-2020 8:33 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18690 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.5
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Message 32 of 263 (878768)
07-04-2020 8:32 AM
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Reply to: Message 31 by Tangle
07-04-2020 8:21 AM
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Re: Airing The Arguments
double post Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 31 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2020 8:21 AM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18690 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.5
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Message 33 of 263 (878769)
07-04-2020 8:33 AM
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Reply to: Message 31 by Tangle
07-04-2020 8:21 AM
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Re: Airing The Arguments
But why have you concluded that what I preach has no truth to it? Thee stumbling block is the same as the stumbling blocks mentioned in the good book itself.
Dictionary.com writes: an obstacle or hindrance to progress, belief, or understanding.
Romans 14:13 writes: Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine thisnot to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way.
1 Cor 1:18-30 writes: 18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. 26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things-and the things that are not-to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. Now I know that scripture does not impress you, but my request is that you stop from mocking it as outdated. Consider what is being said. Evaluate based on content. And show me some of your "esteemed textual critiques" from the bunch whom you claim to be so wise. And keep in mind that having 1 or more degrees is in and of itself unimpressive to me, save for the discipline that it took to earn them. I will hold an effective conversation with any of them any day of the week and mind you I will hold my own. 
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 31 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2020 8:21 AM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 34 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2020 9:47 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9600 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.8
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Message 34 of 263 (878774)
07-04-2020 9:47 AM
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Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
07-04-2020 8:33 AM
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Re: Airing The Arguments
Phat writes: But why have you concluded that what I preach has no truth to it? Because it's meaningless waffle. "I believe that Jesus lives" - or some such nonsense - contains no meaningful content. It's useless religious gibberish. It's the stuff you chant at each other, that means a lot to you - emotionally - but is of no value to anyone outside your bubble.
Now I know that scripture does not impress you, And yet you still quote it and I don't read it. So why do that when you know it's useless? Are you just trying to impress yourself? What do you hope to achieve copypasting stuff from a book I regard as pure myth? It's not evidence of anything Phat - it's just your belief. Would you be impressed if I quoted great chunks of the ruti at you? There's nothing special about your mythology, the world is full of them, they have no validity beyond what the believer believes about them.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 33 by Phat, posted 07-04-2020 8:33 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 702 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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mike the wiz writes: Those aren't the arguments from professional creationists.
Interesting term that, "professional creationists". How was Kent Hovid not a professional creationist? Didn't he derive a lot of his income from lecturing about creationism? You can call him a charlatan or a ****ing liar or even a criminal but I don't see how you can question his professionalism. 
"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 27 by mike the wiz, posted 07-04-2020 6:18 AM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 23042 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 6.5
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Message 36 of 263 (878780)
07-04-2020 12:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
07-04-2020 8:06 AM
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Re: Airing The Arguments
Phat writes: For the record, I encourage Tangle to get on his knees and ask the Creator of all seen and unseen for wisdom! That makes as much sense as encouraging you to get on *your* knees and ask the invisible spaghetti monster for wisdom. The damage that belief in a god constructed by men has done to you is evident to everyone but you. It's like a bad habit you just can't kick. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 30 by Phat, posted 07-04-2020 8:06 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 37 by Phat, posted 07-04-2020 4:05 PM | | Percy has replied | | | Message 38 by Phat, posted 07-05-2020 9:58 AM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18690 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.5
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Message 37 of 263 (878793)
07-04-2020 4:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 36 by Percy
07-04-2020 12:53 PM
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Re: Airing The Arguments
Its about time you and had a discussion! OK, I'll answer, but right now i'm out the door for work. I work 230p-11pm usually. Its a blessing to have a job yet a challenge in these COVID 19 times. I wash my masks every night in lysol and have nitrile gloves, so im ready to step into the battle zone of 2020 reality. I pray daily and will start to focus more on EvC as well as Safeway. If God as I understand Him is real, He will be in communion with us but He wont simply protect us as would a whimsical magic Genie.
Percy writes: The damage that belief in a god constructed by men has done to you is evident to everyone but you. It's like a bad habit you just can't kick. And why would I want to kick the Creator of all seen and unseen to the curb? Science cant answer everything. See my newest topic in the Book Nook.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 36 by Percy, posted 07-04-2020 12:53 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 53 by Percy, posted 07-07-2020 10:21 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18690 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.5
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Message 38 of 263 (878818)
07-05-2020 9:58 AM
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Reply to: Message 36 by Percy
07-04-2020 12:53 PM
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Re: Airing The Arguments
Percy writes: The damage that belief in a god constructed by men has done to you is evident to everyone but you. It's like a bad habit you just can't kick. I can see your argument that basically states that the "God" I believe in was essentially described, written about, and essentially "constructed" by Man. At best, I likely could argue that God as I understand Him was revealed to me, verified as such through the writings and descriptions by others, and thus defined by and constructed by me myself. I believe though cannot objectively prove that God as I understand Him was revealed to me. The Born Again Experience, if you will. A onetime event, occurring roughly early February of 1993 and recollected as a definite onetime (yet ongoing) event that began a lifelong transformation. Why on earth would I even want to seek to kick such a habit? Have you joined with jar in urging me to "throw God away"?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 36 by Percy, posted 07-04-2020 12:53 PM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 39 by ringo, posted 07-05-2020 12:37 PM | | Phat has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 702 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 39 of 263 (878826)
07-05-2020 12:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
07-05-2020 9:58 AM
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Re: Airing The Arguments
Phat writes: Why on earth would I even want to seek to kick such a habit?
Because it's turning you into Faith.
"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 38 by Phat, posted 07-05-2020 9:58 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 40 by Phat, posted 07-05-2020 4:02 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18690 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.5
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Message 40 of 263 (878844)
07-05-2020 4:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 39 by ringo
07-05-2020 12:37 PM
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Re: Airing The Arguments
Nahhhh...im way more open than she was. I wont give up my belief, though. Im not as weak as you were...you placed far too much value on science.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 39 by ringo, posted 07-05-2020 12:37 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 41 by ringo, posted 07-05-2020 7:43 PM | | Phat has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 702 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 41 of 263 (878848)
07-05-2020 7:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
07-05-2020 4:02 PM
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Re: Airing The Arguments
Phat writes: Nahhhh...im way more open than she was.
It may look like that from inside your bunker but it doesn't look like that from out here in the open.
Phat writes: I wont give up my belief, though.
Case in point.
Phat writes: Im not as weak as you were...you placed far too much value on science.
Another case in point. Now you're scoffing at science. There's no such thing as placing too much value on reality.
"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 40 by Phat, posted 07-05-2020 4:02 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 42 by Phat, posted 07-06-2020 8:40 AM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18690 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.5
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Message 42 of 263 (878857)
07-06-2020 8:40 AM
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Reply to: Message 41 by ringo
07-05-2020 7:43 PM
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Re: Airing The Arguments
ringo writes: Now you're scoffing at science. There's no such thing as placing too much value on reality. You are changing the words up in the middle of the stream! Science is an intrinsic part of reality. Science is not all of reality. Granted many beliefs are unfounded. Other beliefs, however, are rational. And I know that you and others have challenged my particular notion of rationality...as I myself sometimes do (privately of course) And I will say it again. I won't simply give up my belief. I know too much, though as you once cracked "I don't know half as much as I think I know.  That all being said, I am a different breed of Christian than Faith was, though not so submissive to Socratic thinking and Language In Thought & Action as is our boy jar. I, like each of you, am unique. There is no such thing as an artificial intelligence bot that is compiled of ringo, AZPaul3, and Tangle. Just as there is no hybrid of Faith,Phat, and the late Buzsaw! Edited by Phat, : spellcheck
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 41 by ringo, posted 07-05-2020 7:43 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 43 by Tangle, posted 07-06-2020 8:51 AM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 45 by ringo, posted 07-06-2020 9:20 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9600 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.8
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Message 43 of 263 (878859)
07-06-2020 8:51 AM
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Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
07-06-2020 8:40 AM
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Re: Airing The Arguments
Phat writes: Other beliefs, however, are rational. How many times Phat? Beliefs, by definition, are not rational. If what you believe is rational, you would be able to demonstrate the verisimilitude to others. It would then no longer be a belief, it would be a fact. You are unable to do that. All you can do is say "I believe."
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 42 by Phat, posted 07-06-2020 8:40 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 44 by Phat, posted 07-06-2020 9:06 AM | | Tangle has replied | | | Message 55 by Phat, posted 07-07-2020 11:13 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18690 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.5
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Message 44 of 263 (878860)
07-06-2020 9:06 AM
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Reply to: Message 43 by Tangle
07-06-2020 8:51 AM
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Re: Airing The Arguments
Beliefs, by definition, are not rational. Ok, so I will go with that. But they are not necessarily delusional or false simply because they are unable to be captured and quantified through evidence. You chose to believe in nothing un-evidenced. Fine. That works for you. But it is not the default. You dont get to frame the issue within your atheistic materialistic construct. There are far too many believers who have had very real experiences. We all are not delusional. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 43 by Tangle, posted 07-06-2020 8:51 AM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 46 by ringo, posted 07-06-2020 9:23 AM | | Phat has not replied | | | Message 47 by jar, posted 07-06-2020 9:33 AM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 49 by Tangle, posted 07-06-2020 11:37 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 702 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 45 of 263 (878862)
07-06-2020 9:20 AM
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Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
07-06-2020 8:40 AM
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Re: Airing The Arguments
Phat writes: Science is an intrinsic part of reality. Science is not all of reality.
You don't know that.
Phat writes: I know too much, though as you once cracked "I don't know half as much as I think I know.
Because a lot of what you THINK you know is only belief. Because your INTERPRETATION of your "experiences" may well be wrong.
Phat writes: That all being said, I am a different breed of Christian than Faith was...
You may not be identical to Faith but you're backsliding in her direction. Instead of beig defensive, you should take it as a warning: If Faith said something similar, run screaming in the opposite direction.
"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 42 by Phat, posted 07-06-2020 8:40 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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