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Author Topic:   3 Theories Of Everything by Ellis Potter
Phat
Member
Posts: 15642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1 of 96 (879151)
07-12-2020 2:10 PM


When I first picked this book up, I was expecting a book that would challenge my world view rather than simply support it. I had no idea who this author was nor of his background, but I felt drawn to his logic and expressed desire to find the truth or truths about philosophy,theology, and perhaps even science...though to be fair I steer around science using philosophy as an excuse. And he actually mentions this in the book!

Anyway, allow me to break the book down Chapter by Chapter.

From The Back Cover:
What is reality? What is the meaning of human life? Why do we suffer? In this concise volume, international speaker Ellis Potter explores three major worldviews that propose radically different answers to these eternal questions. In clear and compelling language, Potter shows us that the three worldviews,and the unique hope that each offers to humanity, have profoundly different consequences for how we see everyday reality and the ultimate purpose in our lives.

Lets start with The First Circle.
Potter basically breaks the three worldviews down as
Monism
Dualism
Trinitarianism

And when I saw the third one I was pleasent surprised that this author expressed familiarity with my own beliefs and indeed went farther than I ever have at asking questions.

It turns out that Potter originally was a Buddhist.

This book is good! I really enjoy the questions that he asks.

Here is an example of his thinking:
God alone is God
but
God is not alone


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by ringo, posted 07-12-2020 2:58 PM Phat has responded
 Message 3 by Tangle, posted 07-12-2020 3:35 PM Phat has responded
 Message 5 by PaulK, posted 07-12-2020 3:40 PM Phat has responded
 Message 7 by AZPaul3, posted 07-12-2020 5:51 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 14 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 07-13-2020 5:02 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 4 of 96 (879174)
07-12-2020 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by ringo
07-12-2020 2:58 PM


Bumper Stickers 101
ringo writes:

That would look good on your bumper.

well I hate bumper stickers! They clutter up the car and are hard to take off once you get tired of them. But Ellis does have some meat to chew on regarding some of the things you and I have discussed.

I once asserted to you the following:
Science is an intrinsic part of reality. Science is not all of reality.

ringo writes:

Now you're scoffing at science.
There's no such thing as placing too much value on reality.

Except that Ellis would argue that within the concept of monism one could claim scientism but that this limits the concept to an absolute.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by ringo, posted 07-12-2020 2:58 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by ringo, posted 07-12-2020 3:50 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 8 of 96 (879212)
07-13-2020 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Tangle
07-12-2020 3:35 PM


And I think that you are willfully ignorant for belueving that scientism and materialisn is all that there is. Humans do far mire than simply make stuff up. the characters exist apart from and outside of the book. No way to prove it to you though.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Tangle, posted 07-12-2020 3:35 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Tangle, posted 07-13-2020 2:31 AM Phat has responded
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 07-13-2020 12:44 PM Phat has responded
 Message 13 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 07-13-2020 4:57 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 11 of 96 (879248)
07-13-2020 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Tangle
07-13-2020 2:31 AM


O Tangled One
Another beautiful day! I look around and blink because I realize the times we are in--everyone wearing masks and collectively dealing with human issues such as survival. Its a good thing to be rationally minded and to understand that viruses can kill humans. It is a necessary task to wear the mask and to keep the hands clean and to avoid contamination. Science has its usefulness. That being said, my argument with yo today is tp pursue the idea and ideal that there is something more---a grand scheme to it all. Ellis Potter does that quite effectively and persuasively in this book.

Tangle writes:

They made the book up, but at least there is a book for you to believe in, nonsense though most of it is. But it's quite another thing when people start imagining and claiming all sorts of crap that is not in the book. They can say absolutely anything they like because it's not open to challenge. It's just religious babble with no verifiable meaning.

I'm assuming you mean the Bible, though I suppose that your charge could also apply to Ellis Potters book.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Tangle, posted 07-13-2020 2:31 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Tangle, posted 07-13-2020 5:05 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 12 of 96 (879250)
07-13-2020 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
07-13-2020 12:44 PM


ringoisms and jingoisms
Cant you get out of your narrow thinking and attempt to be philosophical for a change? Sure Long John Silver is simply a character in a book, but he was in someones head long before that. Moreover, Long John Silver may have evolved from thoughts and experiences far deeper than his character in the book actually hinted at.

You seem to adhere to this world view:

Wiki writes:

Metaphysical naturalism (also called ontological naturalism, philosophical naturalism and antisupernaturalism) is a philosophical worldview which holds that there is nothing but natural elements, principles, and relations of the kind studied by the natural sciences. Methodological naturalism is a philosophical basis for science, for which metaphysical naturalism provides only one possible ontological foundation. Broadly, the corresponding theological perspective is religious naturalism or spiritual naturalism. More specifically, metaphysical naturalism rejects the supernatural concepts and explanations that are part of many religions.

Am I close?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 07-13-2020 12:44 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by ringo, posted 07-14-2020 11:39 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 16 of 96 (879282)
07-14-2020 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by PaulK
07-12-2020 3:40 PM


A One & A Two & A Three
PaulK writes:

I don’t think that monism or dualism can be described as worldviews and trinitarianism - presumably the belief that there are three substances - probably can’t either.

Potter plays his cards quite close to the vest. He explains his conclusions further:
3 Theories Of Everything writes:

I believe the existence of absolutes is most likely,but is inconvenient and disagreeable to our egos. People nowadays are often motivated not to believe in absolutes, because if there are true absolutes, then we are responsible to the absolute.(...)When I looked for absolutes, I discovered there weren't many. I believe it comes down to three: Monism, Dualism, and Trinitarianism.


So lets figure out what Potter means when he claims these three absolutes.
Ellis Potter writes:

If science is the measure of everything, you have scientism. If the human being is the measure of everything,you have humanism.

Personally, the way you guys carry on around here, I see you as accepters of scientism.
ringo writes:

If Potter has any arguments of value, bring them here in your own words.

I'm finding my argument through discussion. I am not quite able to express Potters views in my own words, though I am finding quotes that he makes which I agree with. Tangle would claim that I am simply agreeing with made up mumbo jumbo that gives me comfort. Perhaps he is right. Time will tell.
Ellis Potter writes:

We have explored three absolute worldviews, each of which provides a unique hope to the problem of suffering. (Potter calls it 3 circles)

PaulK writes:

Idealism and Materialism are both forms of monism but I can’t say that they are the same worldview at all

I considered your line of reasoning enough to look outside Potters definitions.
Stanford Encyclopedia Of Philosophy writes:

There are many monisms. What they share is that they attribute oneness. Where they differ is in what they attribute oneness to (the target), and how they count (the unit).

The article gets deep, but does not address Potters insistence that there are only 3 basic absolutes:
Oneism
Twoism
Threeism.

Potter was a Buddhist before he became a Christian. The story is intriguing.

Edited by Phat, : punctuation 101


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by PaulK, posted 07-12-2020 3:40 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Tangle, posted 07-14-2020 3:21 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 18 by PaulK, posted 07-14-2020 3:31 AM Phat has responded
 Message 19 by AZPaul3, posted 07-14-2020 4:49 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 21 of 96 (879293)
07-14-2020 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by AZPaul3
07-14-2020 4:49 AM


Re: A One & A Two & A Three
AZPaul3 writes:

Why so narrow minded? Why present this as some mutually exclusive dichotomy? And how could either be the "measure of all things"? What does that even mean?

We are in the process (in this discussion) of defining reality...as an abstract concept. jar always talks of logic, reason,l and reality.

So lets ask ourselves some questions.

  • How is reality defined? Is it defined only through that which we can quantify and verify? Is it objective or subjective?
    jar writes:

    And it absolutely sells to those who simply don't know how to think or that know how but refuse to think.

    It is so easy for you to bash and criticize other peoples arguments while being too lazy to provide one of your own. You often trip over your own ego. To be fair, you dont have the book to read as I do, thus you cannot fully understand Potters arguments and yet you immediately jump to your pet conclusion that the man must be "selling" something and that he is likely a conman. Am I right?

    Potter writes:

    The Western tradition of thought recognizes that the idea 'things were once perfect and need to be made right again' is the biblical view of history.

    You would of course disagree, claiming that the Bible is human-centric and was created solely as a product of man. Edited, redacted, compiled, yada yada yada.

    So some questions about the basic storyline.

  • Was there perfection in the beginning? Does the storyline indicate that God existed before humans thought Him up? Is the focal point of reality, in this context, focused on God as humans understand Him or is the focal point on our human understanding itself?

    Perhaps another way to phrase the question I am asking is this:

  • Is reality a concept that is defined by humans or is it a concept that is discovered by humans and pondered philosophically? If the former, you are supporting what Potter calls scientism. Feel free to throw humanism in with it. The basic question is whether we should focus on human-centric thinking in describing reality or whether we should speculate on whether there is a power/reality/ground of being that exists whether we choose to acknowledge "it" or not?

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 19 by AZPaul3, posted 07-14-2020 4:49 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 23 by jar, posted 07-14-2020 8:53 AM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15642
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 22 of 96 (879294)
    07-14-2020 8:32 AM
    Reply to: Message 18 by PaulK
    07-14-2020 3:31 AM


    Re: A One & A Two & A Three
    PaulK writes:

    I don’t think that my views would be fairly classified as either. Some things should be science-centred. Others should be human-centred.

    Those two concepts are monastic and indistinguishable. They both are human centered. You cant have science without humans to define and quantify it.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 18 by PaulK, posted 07-14-2020 3:31 AM PaulK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 25 by PaulK, posted 07-14-2020 12:05 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15642
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 26 of 96 (879306)
    07-14-2020 1:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 24 by ringo
    07-14-2020 11:39 AM


    Re: ringoisms and jingoisms
    ringo writes:

    Put it in your own words so we can see what YOU think it means.

    OK I will try. I've heard your arguments enough that I think I can mimic them to a degree.

    You essentially believe or are convinced through logic, reason, and reality that there is an essential distinction between beliefs (of any garden variety) and facts...those events,behaviors, and physical laws which can be objectively proven.

    I perused Potters notes in his questions and answers to see if he addressed your particular types of worldviews and did not specifically find it.

    I concluded on my own that you were basically Monists...if we could fit you (ringo,Tangle, and perhaps AZPaul3) into a category. In that there is a singular reality and not a dualistic cosmic battle or a Trinitarian God who brings His wayward children back into a unified fold through Holy Communion.

    You guys essentially skip belief all together---you throw it away basically. All that you embrace is objective truths through human interpretation of physical evidence and the observable behavior of how the universe around us operates.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 24 by ringo, posted 07-14-2020 11:39 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 27 by ringo, posted 07-14-2020 5:32 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 28 by PaulK, posted 07-14-2020 11:43 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15642
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 29 of 96 (879350)
    07-15-2020 10:06 AM
    Reply to: Message 28 by PaulK
    07-14-2020 11:43 PM


    Re: ringoisms and jingoisms
    PaulK writes:

    I have to say the idea that the Trinity are three separate Gods is not one that orthodox Christianity accepts. But if they are really only one God isn’t that a form of what Potter calls monism ?

    Remember how he chooses to break this stuff down as "circles"? The first circle is Monism, the second circle is Dualism and the third circle is Trinitarianism? (Don't ask me why he does it this way.,...but lets roll with it for now)

    This is how he explains it:

    quote:
    According to the third circle, when we look around at the world we see both unity and diversity. In this way we are like the people of the first circle. But whereas the people of the first circle conclude that unity is good and diversity is not, and that unity is real and diversity is illusion, people of the third circle have a different view. They regard the original perfection, which is called God, as both perfectly unified and perfectly diversified. We see a clear description of this reality in the Bible. God is perfectly unified as One God, and yet God is perfectly diversified in the three persons of the Father,Son, and Holy Spirit. There is unity and diversity in absolute reality. There is not One God who chooses to reveal Himself in three ways in order to create the appearance of diversity, and there are not three persons who choose to unite and cooperate in order to create the appearance of being unified. The original reality is 100% unified and 100% diversified. Its a 200% reality that cannot be comprehended by simple logic.
    Thats what I think he meant when I quoted him in Message 1
    I actually misquoted. The correct quote he used was:
    God alone is God,and God is not alone.

    He mentions that no other God in human imagination has this attribute. You can say Buddha alone is Buddha, but thats all. (The rest is silence)
    You can say Krishna alone is Krishna, or Allah alone is Allah, but again...the rest is silence.

    quote:
    If the God of the third circle wants to talk to somebody, He talks among Himself because He is three persons. A God who wasn't diversified could not talk among Himself. He would have to create something else to talk with. He would require a creation in order to be personal, whereas (Ellis argues) the God of the third circle is intrinsically personal, independent of His creation.
    Thus Potter explains his understanding of Trinitarianism as the centrality of the third circle.
    In a sense, his concept unifies Yin and Yang(the 2nd circle) back into monism(One God) while preserving the belief in the Trinity and a subsequent explanation of his understanding of it. Which sorta makes sense in that the first Adam fell from unity into diversity and the 2nd Adam, Jesus, reunified the diversity caused by that pesky snake back into perfect unity....through acceptance of GOD in the personality of Jesus Christ and preserved eternally through the presence of the Holy Spirit. I mean, it all makes sense to me. I know Tangle insists its all made up Bushwa, but in a strict sense, any belief can be accused of being made up. Ellis Potter expanded my own understanding of Christianity in that his explanations felt intuitively sound. I suppose a critically thinking scientist would challenge the assumptions, but without throwing all belief away and relying solely on objective evidential discovery, what else can one do?

    Edited by Phat, : added clarification


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 28 by PaulK, posted 07-14-2020 11:43 PM PaulK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 30 by PaulK, posted 07-15-2020 10:15 AM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15642
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 31 of 96 (879354)
    07-15-2020 10:21 AM
    Reply to: Message 30 by PaulK
    07-15-2020 10:15 AM


    Re: ringoisms and jingoisms
    As far as the Trimurti goes, I think it differs in the whole image thing.
    wiki writes:

    ... a single three-headed body...

    Which is why Christians were always encouraged to see God as an un-imaged concept.(One would never know it by all of the statues of Jesus, (a white Jesus at that!) but this is one reason Protestants dont trust Catholics. The Orthodox try and get around it all through the use of icons, which they claim are "windows to heaven"...but I never really understood it all. I know that for me personally, it helps when I pray to not have any physical image in my mind as to the God I believe I am talking with...though jar would likely argue that by giving God attributes(friendly to Phat, loving, quick to forgive, etc etc...)I have essentially created Him in my own mind. I disagree, but can see the point.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 30 by PaulK, posted 07-15-2020 10:15 AM PaulK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 32 by PaulK, posted 07-15-2020 10:28 AM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15642
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 33 of 96 (879357)
    07-15-2020 10:32 AM
    Reply to: Message 32 by PaulK
    07-15-2020 10:28 AM


    Re: ringoisms and jingoisms
    Potter places diversity on the same level as unity. And a lack of images does nothing to counter that.
    Christians have never been able to clearly explain the concept of the Trinity, but the idea of God being unified(Monotheistic) yet also diversified(Father and Son) cant really be explained any better...dont you think?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 32 by PaulK, posted 07-15-2020 10:28 AM PaulK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 34 by PaulK, posted 07-15-2020 10:35 AM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15642
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 35 of 96 (879382)
    07-15-2020 2:37 PM
    Reply to: Message 34 by PaulK
    07-15-2020 10:35 AM


    Re: ringoisms and jingoisms
    OK, Paul fair enough.

    Lets start out by asking what the specific contradiction is?


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 34 by PaulK, posted 07-15-2020 10:35 AM PaulK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 36 by PaulK, posted 07-15-2020 2:44 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15642
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 37 of 96 (879407)
    07-15-2020 8:37 PM
    Reply to: Message 36 by PaulK
    07-15-2020 2:44 PM


    Re: ringoisms and jingoisms
    You can’t have something that is completely separate and completely unified.
    Why not? One obvious example that comes to mind is the family unit. Ideally complete and unified. Also fully separate. I see no contradiction here.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 36 by PaulK, posted 07-15-2020 2:44 PM PaulK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 38 by PaulK, posted 07-16-2020 12:21 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15642
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 39 of 96 (879485)
    07-17-2020 12:07 AM


    Trinitarian Rabbit Trail Can Continue Elsewhere
    PaulK---regarding our rabbit trail into the sanity (or insanity) of Potters third circle, Trinitarianism, lets continue this at an older topic where the Trinity was more fully covered:
    Message 397

    We can continue our discussion of Potters book specifically in this topic.

    Here is Potters Table Of Contents:
    The First Circle--(Monism)

  • The New Age Movement
  • Experiencing Oneness
  • The Cycle Of Life
  • Meditation and Language
  • The Nothing of Zen

    The Second Circle--Dualism
    (I notice that Potter does not elaborate too much on dualism. For the record, I wouldn't either! )

    The Third Circle--Trinitarianism

  • The Problem of Opposites
  • Humpty Dumpty
  • Falling in Love on a Bridge
  • Defying Gravity
  • Change,Time, and Eternity
  • Me and We
  • You Gotta Serve Somebody
  • Look,Daddy,Look!

  • A Black Hole in the Heart
  • The Solution
  • To Put it Simply

    45 Questions

  • Themes for discussion
    with responses by Ellis Potter
    ******************************
    Overall, I think this was a useful book for me. Critics may say that it only reinforced my World View, and I can only answer by saying yes, yes it did.

    If anyone has any questions regarding any of the chapters in the book or any of Potters 45 questions, which I can also list in a few posts, we can go there. Otherwise, thanks for participating and perhaps some of you can start your own Book Nook topic and discuss your favorite reads this summer.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


  • Replies to this message:
     Message 40 by PaulK, posted 07-17-2020 10:26 AM Phat has responded

      
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