|
QuickSearch
Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ] |
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9024 total) |
| |
Ryan Merkle | |
Total: 882,905 Year: 551/14,102 Month: 551/294 Week: 38/269 Day: 4/14 Hour: 0/1 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: 3 Theories Of Everything by Ellis Potter | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 16685 Joined: Member Rating: 3.8
|
My thoughts.
I don’t think that his “circles” even do a good job of capturing the underlying beliefs. There is a lot of room for nuance and divergence. And the whole “my beliefs are best!” implicit in it is - well, probably the point, but it’s rather distasteful at best. The more so unless it’s really rigorously justified with painstaking fairness, and I’m not seeing that. At all. Also, it’s a rather sad commentary on Christianity that acknowledging that non-Christians can do good is even an issue. That it has to be justified with dodgy talking of “completeness”, to try and say that Christians are still better just shows that the problem is still there. So, I don’t think that they are really good questions. And the answers aren’t that great either. (Well, the second question is worth asking, I guess, but the fact that it is worth asking is a pretty severe indictment of Christianity).
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 14881 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
Even then, I could see you fighting it. Most of you really want autonomy and never would trust a cosmic authority figure even if One could be proven to exist.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 8054 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
|
The words and ideas that these people spout is totally made up - there's no other source for them. On the few occasions I'm forced into church - births, deaths and marriages - I hear the priest riff around such stuff as though no one with a critical mind is listening. Which I guess they're usually not and which is why they get away with it. Preaching to the converted.
The same refuted stuff just keeps bouncing back as though it was never said. Most of us deal with the reality in front of us. If that ever involved this god thing of yours, we'd deal with it. You know, that stuff about when the facts change...? I know it's alien to you but realists are capable of changing their minds based on evidence. Try it, you might like it. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 14881 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
Good morning, O Tangled One..(who introduced me to the concept of realism)
which I just looked up to jump-start my brain. Realism on Wikipedia One good feature that I like now about the evolving usefulness of Wikipedia is the feature that lets me simply hover over a sub-classification or word mentioned in an article and see the sub-definition pop up handily. Now that we are on the subject, allow me to try and do the same with references to Ellis Potter and his book...on Wiki. Im lazy this morning and am satisfied for now with learning through comparing and contrasting word definitions within a given topic. I did the same with our boy Danial Dennett and pigeon-holed his basic beliefs quite quickly. One thing that I noted which led me back around to Wikis article on Realism is the observation of Dennetts thinking and of how he was raised in the Empiricist tradition. In regards to our ongoing discussions and debates between myself and youse guys, I am starting to understand your positions somewhat better, but for the life of me cannot figure why it is so hard for you to understand mine. I certainly didnt simply adopt a belief/philosophy which was simply (and entirely) made up! There is a lot of anecdotal and subjective evidence within the community, and not everyone is a personified loon.
![]() I also clipped this from Wiki in an article titled "Belief".
Edited by Phat, : tangling up an idea Edited by Phat, : No reason given. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 8054 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
offs. Of course I understand your position! How many times have I explained to that I believed the same garbage as you do once. I completely get it. But it's a delusion - once the smoke blows away you feel a complete idiot for ever believing it.
Of course you did. Just like you think everyone but you and your fellow Christian nutters think every other religion is made up. Despite those believers having exactly the same experience that you have and I had. Despite the fact that you couldn't have had your experience if you'd been born elsewhere or even to different parents. Wake up, you're not special.
I already knew Phat. It hurts. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 14881 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
I appreciate your feedback and honesty. This morning I am travelling down a rabbit trail regarding word definitions. I just found this one on Wikipedia:
Metaphysical naturalism ... (also called ontological naturalism, philosophical naturalism and antisupernaturalism) is a philosophical worldview which holds that there is nothing but natural elements, principles, and relations of the kind studied by the natural sciences. Methodological naturalism is a philosophical basis for science, for which metaphysical naturalism provides only one possible ontological foundation. Broadly, the corresponding theological perspective is religious naturalism or spiritual naturalism. More specifically, metaphysical naturalism rejects the supernatural concepts and explanations that are part of many religions. so i'm trying to defend the idea that my world view is not simply made up. I am observing many of the great minds quoted in support of science and scientific/philosophical concepts and definitions which built upon one another and which led to many further theories and schools of thought today. Having observed this...my question is: Why is the religious theologians who have built their ideas ajnd philosophies upon the Bible and also on the thoughts of many church fathers thought of less respectfully for having gotten their world views thusly? "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 14881 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member Posts: 18854 From: frozen wasteland Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
Let's not forget that "the body of believers on the planet" don't all believe the same things you believe. There are Hindus, Mormons, etc. who all believe as fervently as you do and all have "experiences" as convincing as yours - and YOU think THEIR beliefs are made-up nonsense. You actually reason the same way as atheists do. The only difference is that you hang on to one set of made-up nonsense. "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 8054 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
|
Science is not philosophy. And theology is neither. Theology is wholly made up, has no foundation in anything but a core feeling that mankind is special above all other organisms that are born and die. We made it all up for our own purposes and it became a power structure that survives only while it is culturally acceptable. Philosophy thinks that it can think itself an understanding of the world. Just by sitting in a chair and thinking really hard. At least it's rational and logical, but it gets nowhere if the conclusions it forms can't be tested in the real world. Science is the only thing we've invented that can test the real world an get reproducible, independent, objective answers. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 14881 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
RE:Message 273
In PaulK's topic, Time and Beginning to Exist PaulK states that of the many definitional subsets of Monism, he would most likely agree with Substance Monism.
![]() Edited by Phat, : No reason given. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 14881 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 14881 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
I reject your notion that all beliefs are relative and equally valid. You may have rejected one God more than I have, but you are then stuck explaining the WHY and the HOW of where this universe came from and whether or not we humans collectively or specifically exclusively are going anywhere. Objective evidence, materialistic determinism, or Pauls current adherence to physicalism seem to be the only tools you have left in your box, having thrown Jesus and Schrodinger's Cat out.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member Posts: 18854 From: frozen wasteland Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
You can reject gravity for all I care. Until you have something to back up your rejection, you're just blowing smoke.
That isn't "stuck". I'm one step ahead of YOU because I at least have a POSSIBILITY of learning something. YOU are stuck with having to reject what we do learn if it denies your dogma.
I didn't. Why don't you read what I wrote?
You have it backwards, as usual. It isn't "His messsge." It's an eternal message that He happened to understand.
1. I have no desire to make it off the planet. 2. I do stand for something: humanity. "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 16685 Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
I don’t think that my “monism” is what Potter is talking about at all.
But let’s deal,with the physicalism. In my view mind is supervenient on physical phenomena. There is no “spirit” at least as a concrete entity.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 14881 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
![]() "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021