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Author Topic:   3 Theories Of Everything by Ellis Potter
PaulK
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Posts: 16549
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 61 of 94 (881794)
08-30-2020 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Phat
08-30-2020 2:04 PM


Re: A One & A Two & A Three
quote:
If by concrete you mean material

No, I mean as opposed to abstract.

quote:
I would argue that there was at one time Jesus Christ as a concrete entity and when He rose, the Body of Christ or the Church became the resident of the Spirit as concrete entity

I would argue that he did not rise. Jesus the man was a concrete entity, but that man is dead, gone and so obscured that historians despair of finding the truth about him.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 08-30-2020 2:04 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 09-03-2020 11:48 AM PaulK has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 62 of 94 (881887)
09-03-2020 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by PaulK
08-30-2020 3:28 PM


Re: A One & A Two & A Three
PaulK writes:

Jesus the man was a concrete entity, but that man is dead, gone and so obscured that historians despair of finding the truth about him.

Perhaps you are an atheist because you cannot fathom God as a concrete entity.

Personally I am much more comfortable with the idea of a Creator of all seen and unseen than I am with Quantum mechanics and Physics trying to configure an objective truth concerning the origin of the universe. Perhaps you are more evidence based and logical than I am and see no need for consideration of a Creator for which there likely never be evidence.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by PaulK, posted 08-30-2020 3:28 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by PaulK, posted 09-03-2020 12:13 PM Phat has responded
 Message 64 by ringo, posted 09-03-2020 12:47 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16549
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


(2)
Message 63 of 94 (881890)
09-03-2020 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
09-03-2020 11:48 AM


Re: A One & A Two & A Three
quote:
Perhaps you are an atheist because you cannot fathom God as a concrete entity.

No.

quote:
Personally I am much more comfortable with the idea of a Creator of all seen and unseen than I am with Quantum mechanics and Physics trying to configure an objective truth concerning the origin of the universe. Perhaps you are more evidence based and logical than I am and see no need for consideration of a Creator for which there likely never be evidence.

Religious claims to exclusive truth are ten-a-penny. At least science is honestly trying to understand reality, rather than to (at best) force fit it to pre-conceived ideas.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 09-03-2020 11:48 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 09-07-2020 3:10 PM PaulK has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18753
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 64 of 94 (881899)
09-03-2020 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
09-03-2020 11:48 AM


Re: A One & A Two & A Three
Phat writes:

Personally I am much more comfortable with the idea of a Creator of all seen and unseen than I am with Quantum mechanics and Physics trying to configure an objective truth concerning the origin of the universe.


So am I but my comfort level has nothing to do with what's true.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 09-03-2020 11:48 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 65 of 94 (881987)
09-07-2020 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by PaulK
09-03-2020 12:13 PM


What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
quote:
Perhaps you are an atheist because you cannot fathom God as a concrete entity.

PaulK writes:

No.


As I also said, Perhaps you are more evidence based and logical than I am and see no need for consideration of a Creator for which there likely never be evidence. My perception of a Creator is personal while yours is likely hypothetical.
PaulK writes:

At least science is honestly trying to understand reality, rather than to (at best) force fit it to pre-conceived ideas.

Granted that is true, but I perceive science as trying to define reality based only on what it has to work with. There is nothing personal about science.

ringo writes:

...my comfort level has nothing to do with what's true.

And your criteria is evidence and wherever that evidence leads. You have no need for God so why make it personal? (and I know that you will tell me yet again that you *do* have a desire to seek truth and if it be God then GREAT, but I see no desire to take any leaps of faith on your part. You sit back in the Lab and compare statistics.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by PaulK, posted 09-03-2020 12:13 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by PaulK, posted 09-07-2020 3:19 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 67 by ringo, posted 09-08-2020 12:45 PM Phat has responded
 Message 73 by Stile, posted 09-09-2020 2:35 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16549
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


(2)
Message 66 of 94 (881988)
09-07-2020 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
09-07-2020 3:10 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
quote:
As I also said, Perhaps you are more evidence based and logical than I am and see no need for consideration of a Creator for which there likely never be evidence. My perception of a Creator is personal while yours is likely hypothetical.

I do have other reasons, such as the incoherence of Christianity.

As for your “personal” reasons I will point out that any have similar reasons and come to beliefs significantly different from yours. Such reasons are clearly not reliable guides to the truth.

quote:
Granted that is true, but I perceive science as trying to define reality based only on what it has to work with. There is nothing personal about science.

We have to work with what we have. And science, unlike apologetics, has appropriate modesty (even if some practitioners fall short) and a good deal of internal criticism and correction.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 09-07-2020 3:10 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18753
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 67 of 94 (882001)
09-08-2020 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
09-07-2020 3:10 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
Phat writes:

I see no desire to take any leaps of faith on your part.


You yourself haven't taken any "leap of faith". You've stuck with the fairy tales that you learned as a child. A leap of faith would be to discard them and start fresh. Try a whole new set of fairy tales. Become a Raelian.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 09-07-2020 3:10 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 09-08-2020 2:54 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 68 of 94 (882006)
09-08-2020 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by ringo
09-08-2020 12:45 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
Interesting.
Raelianism

The reason that I "stick" with my childhood fairy tales, which I never adapted until I was over 30, by the way is because I have experienced the supernatural. Once you have such an observational and/or participatory encounter you can never again go back to square one.

And I will admit for the sake of argument that I want God as taught by apologists
and modern tradition to actually be real. I likely suffer from confirmation bias.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by ringo, posted 09-08-2020 12:45 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 09-08-2020 10:34 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18753
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 69 of 94 (882020)
09-08-2020 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Phat
09-08-2020 2:54 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
Phat writes:

I have experienced the supernatural.


So have I. Only I call it "unknown".

Phat writes:

Once you have such an observational and/or participatory encounter you can never again go back to square one.


And yet I did.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 09-08-2020 2:54 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 09-09-2020 7:56 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 70 of 94 (882035)
09-09-2020 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by ringo
09-08-2020 10:34 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
I cant understand why you threw away the God you thought you knew. I would be scared to death of letting go of mine. Its a bit like a bird leaving the nest. Why leave home? You were right in that I fit the profile of the older son. And I too would be mad at a little brother who spent half of Dads stuff and then had the audacity to come home and mooch off of my share.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 09-08-2020 10:34 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 09-09-2020 12:03 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18753
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 71 of 94 (882037)
09-09-2020 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Phat
09-09-2020 7:56 AM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
Phat writes:

Its a bit like a bird leaving the nest. Why leave home?


All birds leave home.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 09-09-2020 7:56 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 09-09-2020 1:49 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 72 of 94 (882043)
09-09-2020 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by ringo
09-09-2020 12:03 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
You are not understanding the metaphor. Where is "home" to God?

I would say that it is everywhere. Thus metaphorically the only way that one could "leave home" is to deny the Spirit. Decide in their own mind and spirit that they desired to be autonomous---separate from Gods nagging still small voice.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 09-09-2020 12:03 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 09-09-2020 8:42 PM Phat has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 73 of 94 (882046)
09-09-2020 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
09-07-2020 3:10 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
Phat writes:

I perceive science as trying to define reality based only on what it has to work with. There is nothing personal about science.

There's plenty personal things about science - if you're inclined to feel them.

But, more to the point, you're right - science is about defining reality; if you use your personal opinions to affect "the definition of reality" - then you're not really defining reality, are you?

At that point... you're simply making yourself feel better and screw "defining reality."

Which has it's place.

But "defining reality" also has it's place.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 09-07-2020 3:10 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18753
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 74 of 94 (882060)
09-09-2020 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
09-09-2020 1:49 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
Phat writes:

You are not understanding the metaphor. Where is "home" to God?


That's a ridiculous concept. In any case, it isn't God who's leaving home, so if He did have a home it would be irrelevant to the metaphor.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 09-09-2020 1:49 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Phat, posted 09-09-2020 9:52 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 75 of 94 (882061)
09-09-2020 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by ringo
09-09-2020 8:42 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
The point is that Gods "home" is everywhere so we really never leave the nest unless we do so mentally. Which I would argue is UN-necessary.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 09-09-2020 8:42 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 09-10-2020 12:08 PM Phat has responded

  
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