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Author Topic:   3 Theories Of Everything by Ellis Potter
ringo
Member
Posts: 18753
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 76 of 94 (882088)
09-10-2020 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Phat
09-09-2020 9:52 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
Phat writes:

The point is that Gods "home" is everywhere so we really never leave the nest unless we do so mentally.


Well, of course. Growing up is about cutting the apron-strings mentally.
Phat writes:

Which I would argue is UN-necessary.


You might also assert that leaving your mommy is unnecessary but that doesn't mean it's a desirable situation.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Phat, posted 09-09-2020 9:52 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 09-12-2020 1:41 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 77 of 94 (882127)
09-12-2020 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by ringo
09-10-2020 12:08 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
*sigh*

God is not the same as your parents. Humans were never meant to be independent from God.

Through His own Grace, we were given the option, one which many of you eagerly accepted. You were tired of the yolk of organized religion, or you despised authority anyway. Its also why many of us leave home early. We wish to have the responsibility (and imagined freedom) to become our own authority.

You will claim that this is normal. That humans are meant to grow and renounce old unproven concepts such as gods and conservative governments.

I counter by saying that God exists, cares about all humans, and foreknows that Communion with Him is better for us than autonomy and freethought.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 09-10-2020 12:08 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 09-12-2020 1:53 PM Phat has responded
 Message 86 by ringo, posted 09-12-2020 9:26 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32911
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 78 of 94 (882129)
09-12-2020 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
09-12-2020 1:41 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
Phat writes:

I counter by saying that God exists, cares about all humans, and foreknows that Communion with Him is better for us than autonomy and freethought.

Then you should be able to explain what the hell that even means, how "communion" with the supernatural is even possible and how it is better for us than autonomy, freethought and responsibility.

AbE:

Phat, what you fall back into, pretty much constantly, is "Club Speak". Instead of speaking English you fall back on definitions accepted in your secret club, your clique, your cult.

When you say "I counter by saying that God exists, cares about all humans, and foreknows that Communion with Him is better for us than autonomy and freethought." everyone in your secret club, your clique, your cult nods there heads as though that actually had some meaning beyond "stuff that makes members of your secret club, your clique, your cult nod their heads knowingly."

No one in your secret club, your clique, your cult ever questions what it means or tries to explain what it means or even thinks about what it means. The reality is that "I counter by saying that God exists, cares about all humans, and foreknows that Communion with Him is better for us than autonomy and freethought." actually only means "something that makes the members of my secret club, my clique, my cult nod their heads knowingly."

You use your Captain Midnight Secret Glow Green in the Dark decoder ring and it tells you to nod your head and smile wisely

Beyond your secret club, your clique and your cult it has no meaning or rather whatever meaning anyone wants to assign.

When others challenge you to explain it you have no real chance. You say "Everyone knows what it means and you are just being difficult" when the reality is that outside your secret club, your clique, your cult there really isn't any meaning.

Edited by jar, : see AbE:


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 09-12-2020 1:41 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by AZPaul3, posted 09-12-2020 2:56 PM jar has responded
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 09-12-2020 4:03 PM jar has responded
 Message 89 by Phat, posted 09-13-2020 2:40 PM jar has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5305
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 79 of 94 (882131)
09-12-2020 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by jar
09-12-2020 1:53 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
... how "communion" with the supernatural is even possible ...

A quite room in the dark of night, one lit candle on the other side of the room and
a large ground beef burrito with plenty of salsa verde.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 09-12-2020 1:53 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 09-12-2020 2:59 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32911
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 80 of 94 (882132)
09-12-2020 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by AZPaul3
09-12-2020 2:56 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
Make it Salsa Ranchero.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by AZPaul3, posted 09-12-2020 2:56 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5305
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 81 of 94 (882133)
09-12-2020 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by jar
09-12-2020 2:59 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
That's 50₵ extra.

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 09-12-2020 2:59 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 82 of 94 (882134)
09-12-2020 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
07-14-2020 8:53 AM


Re: A One & A Two & A Three
Name 5 worldviews that dont touch on one of those 3.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 07-14-2020 8:53 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 09-12-2020 5:24 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 83 of 94 (882135)
09-12-2020 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by jar
09-12-2020 1:53 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
jar writes:

When you say "I counter by saying that God exists, cares about all humans, and foreknows that Communion with Him is better for us than autonomy and freethought." everyone in your secret club, your clique, your cult nods there heads as though that actually had some meaning beyond "stuff that makes members of your secret club, your clique, your cult nod their heads knowingly."

Granted, but I have a vocabulary and description based on my own inteect and experience. I do not yet speak the way that the "club" speaks.

And you also engage in Clubspeak.
The club has its hjighest regards for human wisdom. They honor Critical Thinking. They reject all supernatural unexplained phenomena.
Here is how their club speaks:

There is no way your personal experience can be evidence that can be tested or validated or reproduced or duplicated by all others.
Personal experience is evidence but evidence of little or no value beyond the individual involved where other evidence, evidence that can be tested and confirmed independently is of value beyond just the individual.(...)We use logic, reason and reality to test what is written.
Does a writing point to a model that is of use to all? Does it provide a moral guide to a functioning society? Does the writing teach us how to live today in harmony with other people, things and the environment itself?
You use Critical Thinking to dissect the Bible. You even use it to dissect God.

No one in your secret club, your clique, your cult ever questions what it means or tries to explain what it means or even thinks about what it means. The reality is that "I counter by saying that God exists, cares about all humans, and foreknows that Communion with Him is better for us than autonomy and freethought." actually only means "something that makes the members of my secret club, my clique, my cult nod their heads knowingly."
And what if knowing and accepting God was Gods desired goal for all of us? Your club would never agree enough to ever accept Him. You could only hope at best that He would accept you based on what you do.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 09-12-2020 1:53 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 09-12-2020 5:33 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 87 by FLRW, posted 09-13-2020 12:52 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32911
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 84 of 94 (882136)
09-12-2020 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Phat
09-12-2020 3:56 PM


Re: A One & A Two & A Three
Atheism.
Polytheism.
Agnostism.
Pantheism.
Socialism.
Communism.
Fascism.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 09-12-2020 3:56 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32911
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 85 of 94 (882137)
09-12-2020 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
09-12-2020 4:03 PM


Once again Phat...
Phat writes:

The club has its hjighest regards for human wisdom. They honor Critical Thinking. They reject all supernatural unexplained phenomena.

No Phat, that is not true.

They ask for evidence to support assertions of supernatural unexplained phenomena or they are honest and simply place them in the "Unexplained " box. They don't reject anything except ***** lableing the unknown as though it was known.

Phat writes:

You use Critical Thinking to dissect the Bible. You even use it to dissect God.

No Phat, that is not true.

I do not dissect the Bible or God. I accept that the Bible says what is actually written and that the God folk describe is just as they make up.

Phat writes:

And what if knowing and accepting God was Gods desired goal for all of us? Your club would never agree enough to ever accept Him. You could only hope at best that He would accept you based on what you do.

LOL Again Phat, that is just stupid.

I am a believer. It just the God(s) and god(s0 you create that I do not accept. But if you can provide evidence or reasoned arguments to support the God(s) or god(s) you create I'd even consider accepting them.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 09-12-2020 4:03 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18753
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 86 of 94 (882139)
09-12-2020 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
09-12-2020 1:41 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
Phat writes:

Humans were never meant to be independent from God.


So you claim but you've never been able to back it up.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 09-12-2020 1:41 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
FLRW
Member
Posts: 42
Joined: 10-08-2007


Message 87 of 94 (882144)
09-13-2020 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
09-12-2020 4:03 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
*
The word God is for me nothing but the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of venerable but still rather primitive legends.

*


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5305
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 88 of 94 (882145)
09-13-2020 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by FLRW
09-13-2020 12:52 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
Welcome, heretic.

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by FLRW, posted 09-13-2020 12:52 PM FLRW has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 89 of 94 (882146)
09-13-2020 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by jar
09-12-2020 1:53 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
jar writes:

Then you should be able to explain what the hell that even means, how "communion" with the supernatural is even possible and how it is better for us than autonomy, free thought and responsibility.

I notice that you added responsibility to my list. So no, I do not think that personal responsibility should be absolved.

You seem to have this idea that trusting God and His Spirit minimizes personal responsibility.

  • Though we cannot objectively *prove* the supernatural, it has been anecdotally reported by many Christians (and even in other religions, though I doubt its the Holy Spirit they experience) and has been personally experienced by myself. I dont just believe stuff because some preacher, prophet, or carny barker cons me into the product.
    As a matter of fact, my latest guy whom I trust, Isaiah Saldivar, is telling us again and again how demons are real, the supernatural is common, and that churches should be actively engaging it.

    Now I know for a fact that you would immediately call the guy out as a liar and conman. Though I have not met him personally, I have corresponded with him and am testing the spirit. In fact, I am willing to fast and pray and get ready for a deliverance myself. I will know if in fact the claim is real. You likely will say that I am simply drinking more of the kool-aid and am willingly allowing fantasy to become real to me and denying reality, but I am not a stupid man and I am honest with myself (and hopefully others) and will get to the bottom of this teaching once and for all.

    I may well find that I cannot honestly label anything as supernatural and, like you, must label it as unexplained. Or at worst, I may see that ones whom I trust turn out to actually be con men. But I have to see for myself. I'm not simply going to believe a critically thinking Socratic teacher who asks me to examine historical evidence. I will judge by the fruits of the deliverance, the changes I note in myself, and the peace that is in my mind and soul (or the anxiety and double mindedness, if that be the case)

    To put it simply, however, I believe as of today that communion (or encounters) with the supernatural are possible for several reasons.

    It is not something commonly seen in the global church though it happens in places where people are not materialistically comfortable as much.

    Edited by Phat, : spelling, punctuation, etc


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 78 by jar, posted 09-12-2020 1:53 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 90 by jar, posted 09-13-2020 2:45 PM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32911
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 90 of 94 (882147)
    09-13-2020 2:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 89 by Phat
    09-13-2020 2:40 PM


    Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
    Phat writes:

    Though I have not met him personally, I have corresponded with him and am testing the spirit.

    There you go off into fantasy land yet again. What the hell is spirit and just exactly how do you test spirit?

    Phat writes:

    I will judge by the fruits of the deliverance, the changes I note in myself, and the peace that is in my mind and soul (or the anxiety and double mindedness, if that be the case)

    And more fantasy. What do any of the things you mention have to do with anything but how you feel?


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 89 by Phat, posted 09-13-2020 2:40 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 91 by Phat, posted 09-13-2020 2:53 PM jar has responded

      
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