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Author Topic:   The Great Depression No One Talks About
Phat
Member
Posts: 14289
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 20 (879936)
07-26-2020 8:34 AM


Months ago when COVID 19 was just arriving in America, there were forecasts of a probable "Great Depression" level of unemployment and that aside from 30% unemployment we would face a struggling economy for many years. Just over a month ago, this came out in the news:

"Its Official: The Recession Is Here, But Is Likely To Be Brief".

I suspect that the media is being manipulated to a degree as to how tyhey choose to word the stories and the effect on morale for the general population.

Now, the big news appears to be another round of "stimulus checks".

My question is basically this: It does not take a rocket scientist (nor an economist) to see what is going on. We are in a giant game of musical chairs. As long as everybody keeps playing, the money keeps moving. Once the music stops, however...perhaps 5 out of 25 people will even have a chair to sit on (or money in their pocket). I dont know what magic bag of tricks the Federal Reserve has at their disposal nor the Treasury, but I am no dummy...when you "create 3 trillion dollars out of thin air, the repercussions will reverberate. As our Uncle Jar says, "The Bill Will Get Paid."

And at another level, as long as Global Confidence remains toward the US Dollar, that music keeps playing also...but what on earth would occur should the other nations want to pen their hopes on another currency? Or two or three? And what if someone like Trump wants to pull the dollar out of that consensus? So many what if's. I confess I have anxiety over money and security.

I already showed everyone the protests in Denver and I see the repercussions of expanded unemployment and homelessness at my store, where two thousand a day goes out the door by shoplifting. It is only getting worse, and what irks me is that these people could care less about my needs as an employee. The hours are getting cut and i'm mad quite frankly. I feel as if the police need to be strengthened and not defunded.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14289
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2 of 20 (879937)
07-26-2020 8:58 AM


Remembering An Earlier Debt Default EvC Topic
The following comments were made in an earlier topic. United States Debt Default. I notice then that we were talking when the debt was officially around 14 trillion dollars.
Straggler: Message 1 (Topic Starter}
jars comment back then:
jar writes:

Realistic possibilities.
The current revenue inflow is sufficient to cover interest payments on the debt so even if the Debt Limit is not raised, default in the short term is not likely.

If the Debt Limit doesn't get raised, the short term impact would be on the poor, the ill, the unemployed and those on Social Security. The rich, those working and those with streams of income not related to Social Security would likely see little short term effects. It's likely that US Postal services would stop and the payments to military, Social Security retirees, those on Federal Welfare and Federal unemployment extensions would suffer almost immediately.

The Postal services will get picked up by alternative carriers and so they would benefit.

State economies would take a hit since the funds paid to the unemployed, those people on Social Security retirement benefits and those receiving Medicare benefits almost all gets spent locally.


Taq writes:

It doesn't have to happen in the long or short term. If the debt ceiling is raised in the short term and the debt is brought down to reasonable levels over the next 10 to 20 years then there is no problem.


AZPaul3 writes:

So true. But that would require fiscal discipline on the part of several consecutive congresses. I am not optimistic.

And then an onimous post by xongsmith:
xongsmith in 2011 writes:

It's the filthy disgusting greedy rich corporate bastards that have all their lackeys running the government and have positioned their most effective criminals (all the big Republican shitholes and some of the Democrat shitholes) in political office. They refuse to give up their heinously constructed tax breaks and instead want to fuck over the people of the USA even more than they already are, as they wage wars around the globe, raping, torturing, exterminating everything they find in sight.
I can only earnestly hope that, somehow, some horrible new painful irreversible disease hits the world that is extremely infectious only to those people who would agree with their psychotic mindset as they arrive while the rest of us are immune.


Several points:
  • Current US Debt: As of May 1, 2020 federal debt held by the public was $19.05 trillion and intragovernmental holdings were $5.9 trillion, for a total national debt of $24.95 trillion.
  • Nobody is quibbling about spending. The debt limit is getting raised to provide stimulus.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


  • Replies to this message:
     Message 3 by PaulK, posted 07-26-2020 9:18 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 16471
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 1.5


    Message 3 of 20 (879938)
    07-26-2020 9:18 AM
    Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
    07-26-2020 8:58 AM


    Re: Remembering An Earlier Debt Default EvC Topic
    I have two comments.

    First, spending in a time of economic difficulty is sensible even if it drives up the debt. The trick is to reduce the debt in more prosperous times.

    Second, it seems appallingly uncharitable to deal with the newly homeless by having the police move them on. The more so if you just want them inflicted on someone else. True they probably don’t care about your needs. But to them you’re sitting comfortably.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2 by Phat, posted 07-26-2020 8:58 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32724
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.7


    (1)
    Message 4 of 20 (879940)
    07-26-2020 9:26 AM


    ****!

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    Replies to this message:
     Message 5 by Phat, posted 07-26-2020 9:53 AM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14289
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 5 of 20 (879941)
    07-26-2020 9:53 AM
    Reply to: Message 4 by jar
    07-26-2020 9:26 AM


    Perhaps You Can Elaborate?
    jar writes:

    "fool!"

    I realize that we are going through trying times. Heck, that darn hurricane is just another added expense that must be paid.

    But you always tell me that I dont think through the implications of things. I know that the government is trying to keep everybody as comfortable as possible. Im just worried that the eventual bill will be so big that virtually everyone will be responsible for it...which is currently over $400,000.00 per person. How do you honestly think that we will all get out of that? Aside from hyperinflation.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by jar, posted 07-26-2020 9:26 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 6 by jar, posted 07-26-2020 10:02 AM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32724
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 6 of 20 (879943)
    07-26-2020 10:02 AM
    Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
    07-26-2020 9:53 AM


    Re: Perhaps You Can Elaborate?
    LOL

    Stop believing in the idiots you follow.

    It really is that simple.

    No problem gets solved by using violent suppression. Even World War II was finally solved by negotiation and by addressing the needs of the people for food, clothing, shelter, dignity.

    Adding more police will never address any of the causes for shoplifting.

    Until we stop the really stupid Law & Order Crap all we will do is make life worse.

    But then that seems to be what you want.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 5 by Phat, posted 07-26-2020 9:53 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 7 by Phat, posted 07-26-2020 10:05 AM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14289
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 7 of 20 (879945)
    07-26-2020 10:05 AM
    Reply to: Message 6 by jar
    07-26-2020 10:02 AM


    Re: Perhaps You Can Elaborate?
    jar writes:

    Until we stop the really stupid Law & Order Crap all we will do is make life worse.

    But then that seems to be what you want.

    I just want the flagrant anarchy to stop. Its spelled out quite plainly in the 10 commandments. Don't steal. And yet these social welfare misfits seem to think its their entitlement.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 6 by jar, posted 07-26-2020 10:02 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 8 by jar, posted 07-26-2020 10:10 AM Phat has responded
     Message 17 by nwr, posted 07-26-2020 5:17 PM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32724
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 8 of 20 (879947)
    07-26-2020 10:10 AM
    Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
    07-26-2020 10:05 AM


    Re: Perhaps You Can Elaborate?
    Phat writes:

    I just want the flagrant anarchy to stop. Its spelled out quite plainly in the 10 commandments. Don't steal. And yet these social welfare misfits seem to think its their entitlement.

    So it is once again only about how you feel!

    Can you see a pattern?

    Has your store requested the police to suppress the shoplifters?

    And I notice that yet again when we get down to what is really bugging you it is NOT the Great Depression or National Debt but Phat's feelings of entitlement.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by Phat, posted 07-26-2020 10:05 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 9 by Phat, posted 07-26-2020 10:13 AM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14289
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 9 of 20 (879948)
    07-26-2020 10:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 8 by jar
    07-26-2020 10:10 AM


    Re: Perhaps You Can Elaborate?
    im griping about their sense of entitlement not mine. I work for what i get and the behavior of the masses threatens to pull more of us overboard.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 8 by jar, posted 07-26-2020 10:10 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 10 by PaulK, posted 07-26-2020 10:40 AM Phat has responded
     Message 11 by jar, posted 07-26-2020 10:55 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 16471
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 1.5


    Message 10 of 20 (879949)
    07-26-2020 10:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
    07-26-2020 10:13 AM


    Re: Perhaps You Can Elaborate?
    quote:
    im griping about their sense of entitlement not mine

    Exactly.

    quote:
    I work for what i get and the behavior of the masses threatens to pull more of us overboard.

    I’m sure that a lot of the people you want moved on aren’t thieves and would love the opportunity to work for a living.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by Phat, posted 07-26-2020 10:13 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 12 by Phat, posted 07-26-2020 2:17 PM PaulK has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32724
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 11 of 20 (879951)
    07-26-2020 10:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
    07-26-2020 10:13 AM


    Re: Perhaps You Can Elaborate?
    Phat writes:

    im griping about their sense of entitlement not mine.

    Correct; YOUR entitlement is jess fine.

    Got it!


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by Phat, posted 07-26-2020 10:13 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14289
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 12 of 20 (879954)
    07-26-2020 2:17 PM
    Reply to: Message 10 by PaulK
    07-26-2020 10:40 AM


    May The Music Never Stop
    PaulK writes:

    I’m sure that a lot of the people you want moved on aren’t thieves and would love the opportunity to work for a living.


    jar writes:

    Correct; YOUR entitlement is jess fine. Got it!


    OK, OK I see both of your points. I am a whiner and a spoiled (old)brat. But I think that what scares me about the possibility of a Great Depression is the idea that any one of us could become homeless and on the streets just as these people are. And that scares me. I'm too old to fight for my spot. I'm too old to even be able to get as strong as I want to get.

    Of course my daily prayers help a lot--people can laugh at my "invisible friend" but He is very real to me and I want you guys to know that He won't let me be too selfish or authoritarian, yet He may have to take care of this old man at some point. This whole ideological resolve to get back to the Democratic ideals may well not work when the country is virtually and practically broke. Unless, of course the music continues to play---both globally and nationally. The money itself says it: In God We Trust. The reality, however, in an economic sense is that it is the perceived value of the money that we must trust in, for without that, all we have is a lot of green toilet paper.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 10 by PaulK, posted 07-26-2020 10:40 AM PaulK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 13 by PaulK, posted 07-26-2020 2:41 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 15 by ringo, posted 07-26-2020 3:49 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 16471
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 1.5


    Message 13 of 20 (879956)
    07-26-2020 2:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
    07-26-2020 2:17 PM


    Re: May The Music Never Stop
    quote:
    OK, OK I see both of your points. I am a whiner and a spoiled (old)brat. But I think that what scares me about the possibility of a Great Depression is the idea that any one of us could become homeless and on the streets just as these people are. And that scares me. I'm too old to fight for my spot. I'm too old to even be able to get as strong as I want to get.

    My point is that you should have more sympathy for those who have lost their jobs and homes. If there is another Great Depression, they’re the victims not the cause. The stimulus is not something you should be objecting to either, since it’s keeping things from getting worse.

    Which would you prefer - losing your job or keeping it but having to pay a little more in tax?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 12 by Phat, posted 07-26-2020 2:17 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32724
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 14 of 20 (879958)
    07-26-2020 3:45 PM


    And beware the conmen saving you money, for example by stopping the payroll tax.

    Yup, today's paycheck may get a little bigger but Social Security, Unemployment and Medicare would disappear.

    Taxes are not bad. In fact the places with a far higher quality of life than the US also have higher taxes.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18511
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.6


    Message 15 of 20 (879959)
    07-26-2020 3:49 PM
    Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
    07-26-2020 2:17 PM


    Re: May The Music Never Stop
    Phat writes:

    ... the possibility of a Great Depression...


    Just an anecdote:
    During the actual Great Depression, there were two years in a row when my father's family had ZERO cash income. They ate what they could grow in their garden - but there was no rain. They had eggs and milk - but they had to feed the animals. Ironically, the wheat farmers had to buy flour - but how could they with no money? They had a house but I don't know what they did for fuel - we don't have trees to burn on the prairies. They had horses for transportation - but they had to feed them. No new clothes for two years. No entertainment except the homemade kind.

    And many were worse off than they were.

    So it grinds my gears a bit when you talk about a "Great Depression" today. The social(ist) programs that were brought in to alleviate the Great Depression. Push for more socialism.


    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 12 by Phat, posted 07-26-2020 2:17 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
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