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Author Topic:   The Great Depression No One Talks About
Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 76 of 138 (881886)
09-03-2020 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Taq
09-03-2020 11:30 AM


The Tactfulness of Taq
Well Taq, you do have tact, I'll certainly say that.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Taq, posted 09-03-2020 11:30 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18822
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 77 of 138 (881892)
09-03-2020 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Phat
09-03-2020 11:25 AM


Re: The Bill will get paid
Phat writes:

Where will the money come from to help the poor?


Money circulates. The more money the poor have, the more they spend, the more is collected in taxes, the more money the merchants have, the more they spend, the more is collected in taxes.....

Phat writes:

It wont come from the rich. They will make sure of that.


That's why I don't believe in taxing the rich. Once they have the money, it's too hard to get it back. We have to prevent them from getting rich.

Phat writes:

You claim that the poor will come up to meet me, but I am arguing that the money I now am scarely able to save for my retirement will get taken from me through higher taxes ...


You're not arguing. You're asserting.

But if the poor are making more money and paying more taxes, why would YOU be paying more taxes? Why wouldn't you be paying LESS taxes?

Phat writes:

You dont mention that the poor and myself will then be in the same class.


What's so bad about that?

Phat writes:

They may well have come up a couple of notches, but I will have dropped a notch or two. See my point?


You don't have a point.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 09-03-2020 11:25 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 09-04-2020 12:07 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 78 of 138 (881909)
09-04-2020 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by ringo
09-03-2020 12:21 PM


Re: The Bill will get paid
i suppose it all works in theory....but im wary of a globalist agenda. i dont trust people who dont trust God.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 09-03-2020 12:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 09-04-2020 12:13 PM Phat has responded
 Message 129 by kjsimons, posted 09-10-2020 8:02 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18822
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 79 of 138 (881910)
09-04-2020 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
09-04-2020 12:07 PM


Re: The Bill will get paid
Phat writes:

....but im wary of a globalist agenda.


Everybody doing the right thing is not a "globalist agenda".

Phat writes:

i dont trust people who dont trust God.


But it's the ones who DO trust God - e.g. the televangelists and the apologists - who can't be trusted.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 09-04-2020 12:07 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 09-04-2020 12:46 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 80 of 138 (881911)
09-04-2020 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by ringo
09-04-2020 12:13 PM


Hummana Hummana Hummana..Who dooya Trust?
ringo writes:

But it's the ones who DO trust God - e.g. the televangelists and the apologists - who can't be trusted.

While wary of many of the televangelists and a good half of the Christians, I am not inclined to mistrust Christian apologetics. It intuitively makes sense to me, and rings true in my inner Spirit. Your Critical Thinking and evidence backed amalgamated Jesus Gantry, the whole "pick a God" spinning wheel, the admonition to throw God away and simply do the message, and the universe being essentially created out of nothing is what I do not trust.

I am intuitive. Take conspiracy videos on YouTube. I reject 95% of them because they make extraordinary claims that are based on no testable foundation. IF, on the other hand, the commentator has a reasonably logical argument, I pay more attention and if the topic is one I am concerned about, I watch the video. Like this one.

It has basic observational truths in it, and I see no reason to question it more than I have.

I likely will vote for Biden this year. This despite the fact that many of the charismatic Christians vilify the agenda. My decision was arrived at entirely through prayer and meditation. It goes against the mainstream church, but I don't care---I listen to God and not popular Christian opinion.

I will say this much though. We are in store for some tough times.

Edited by Phat, : wrong video


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 09-04-2020 12:13 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 09-04-2020 12:59 PM Phat has responded
 Message 101 by ramoss, posted 09-09-2020 12:13 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18822
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 81 of 138 (881912)
09-04-2020 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Phat
09-04-2020 12:46 PM


Re: Hummana Hummana Hummana..Who dooya Trust?
Phat writes:

... I am not inclined to mistrust Christian apologetics.


Then why are you afraid to discuss them?

Phat writes:

I am intuitive. Take conspiracy videos on YouTube. I reject 95% of them because they make extraordinary claims that are based on no testable foundation.


And yet most of what you post here is extraordinary claims that are based on no testable foundation.

Phat writes:

... I see no reason to question it more than I have.


That's your basic problem. You should never stop questioning.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 09-04-2020 12:46 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 09-04-2020 1:37 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 82 of 138 (881913)
09-04-2020 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by ringo
09-04-2020 12:59 PM


Re: Hummana Hummana Hummana..Who dooya Trust?
ringo writes:

Then why are you afraid to discuss them?(the apologists)

I have two apologists whom I trust and like.

Dr.John Lennox

Vince Vitale

I doubt if anyone will find any dirt on them.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 09-04-2020 12:59 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by ringo, posted 09-04-2020 8:30 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18822
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 83 of 138 (881916)
09-04-2020 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Phat
09-04-2020 1:37 PM


Re: Hummana Hummana Hummana..Who dooya Trust?
Phat writes:

I doubt if anyone will find any dirt on them.


So bring their arguments here and discuss them in your own words.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 09-04-2020 1:37 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 09-05-2020 9:11 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 84 of 138 (881919)
09-05-2020 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by ringo
09-04-2020 8:30 PM


Two Good Apologists
Dr.John Lennox has a plethora of material which would be classified as Apologetic. One such article which I found of his was this one:
Stephen Hawking and God in which he challenges Hawking's basic pronouncement that "the laws of physics, not the will of God, provide the real explanation as to how life on earth came into being. " Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow(Caltech physicist) wrote a book called The Grand Design which Dr. Lennox was challenging.

Hawking basically was quoted as saying “Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going.”(...) and " “because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing.”

Lennox provided rational responses to these basic claims. Dr. Lennox is one of the few people who could even hope to follow Dr. Hawking's thought process, so in regards to defending the Christian Worldview from secular scientists who attempt to add atheism and philosophy to their theories, he is well qualified.

He also challenges another well known atheist, Peter Atkins:

quote:
Hawking here is using the same incoherent “argument” as Oxford chemist Peter Atkins, also a well known atheist, who believes that “Space-time generates its own dust in the process of its own self-assembly.”
I dont fully understand the argument, but am in favor of Dr. Lennox defense in general. (and why wouldn't I be? )

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by ringo, posted 09-04-2020 8:30 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Tangle, posted 09-05-2020 9:19 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 86 by jar, posted 09-05-2020 10:00 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 09-05-2020 12:10 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 88 by PaulK, posted 09-05-2020 12:20 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7993
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 85 of 138 (881920)
09-05-2020 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
09-05-2020 9:11 AM


Re: Two Good Apologists
Phat writes:

I dont fully understand the argument, but am in favor of Dr. Lennox defense in general. (and why wouldn't I be?)

If you can't even tell us what these 'arguments' are, how can we discuss them?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 09-05-2020 9:11 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33019
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 86 of 138 (881921)
09-05-2020 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
09-05-2020 9:11 AM


Re: Two Good Apologists
Basics Phat, basics.

There is evidence that the Universe exists.

There is no evidence of any creator.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 09-05-2020 9:11 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18822
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 87 of 138 (881924)
09-05-2020 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
09-05-2020 9:11 AM


Re: Two Good Apologists
Phat writes:

Lennox provided rational responses to these basic claims.


Tell us what the responses are.

Phat writes:

I dont fully understand the argument....


Then you have no business proclaiming it rational.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 09-05-2020 9:11 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16631
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 88 of 138 (881925)
09-05-2020 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
09-05-2020 9:11 AM


Re: Two Good Apologists
Given that Lennox attacks Hawking for an argument that Hawking does not make explicitly or even implicitly in the quoted material the article seems to be the usual attempt to pretend intellectual superiority by sacrificing intellectual honesty. I guess it’s not surprising that the original was published in the Daily Mail.

Needless to say, I am not impressed by Lennox.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 09-05-2020 9:11 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Tangle, posted 09-05-2020 12:34 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7993
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 89 of 138 (881926)
09-05-2020 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by PaulK
09-05-2020 12:20 PM


Re: Two Good Apologists
PaulK writes:

Needless to say, I am not impressed by Lennox.

I just watched a debate with him and Dawkins and Christian promo of him 'debunking' Hawking and Krauss.

The first was just a rehash of all familiar arguments which are too boring to go into, but the second was him talking as a mathematician - or at least at first.

After a few minutes it became pretty clear that he hadn't a clue what either of them where actually saying. He didn't understand the difference between mathematical/cosmological definitions of nothing and the layman's understanding of nothing and got into that populist ridicule mode. Really disappointing that he's prepared to let himself down like that.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by PaulK, posted 09-05-2020 12:20 PM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 09-05-2020 3:16 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 90 of 138 (881929)
09-05-2020 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Tangle
09-05-2020 12:34 PM


Re: Two Good Apologists
Send me a link of the same debate that you watched. I never figured that any of you would agree with me regarding his arguments...but it almost seems as if you guys are on another planet from myself. Collectively, none of you (PaulK, Tangle,ringo) see any need for God to exist and are thus not as biased as I am going in to these arguments. The reason that I provided an article versus a video (though I find videos much easier to absorb) is due to ringo having no way of watching videos in the library where he frequents.

I have no written material from Vince Vitale, however, and thus can only share an audio podcast. I like Vince because he is philosophical rather than a scriptural literalist, which wouldn't impress you anyway.

Dr.Vince Vitale

Does Jesus Have A Savior Complex?


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Tangle, posted 09-05-2020 12:34 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Tangle, posted 09-05-2020 4:05 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 92 by ringo, posted 09-05-2020 9:08 PM Phat has responded

  
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