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Author Topic:   The Great Depression No One Talks About
Tangle
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Posts: 7911
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 91 of 138 (881931)
09-05-2020 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
09-05-2020 3:16 PM


Re: Two Good Apologists
Phat writes:

... it almost seems as if you guys are on another planet from myself.

We are, it's called non-overlapping magisterium. We're always talking about different things but think it's the same.

When Hawkings and Krauss etc talk about a universe from nothing it's a different 'nothing' than when you or I talk about it. Neither you nor I understand a cosmological nothing.

It only makes mathematical sense, it's not what is meant when we say that there's nothing in the jar.

So when your guy is ridiculing the something from nothing idea by pretending it's the same as the empty jar he's being disingenuous, appealing to the ignorant masses. And he does know better.

And worse, it makes a reasonable discussion of a really difficult idea impossible between the two sides.

It resolves to - because of the laws of gravity, the universe can create itself from nothing. But the law of gravity is not nothing. So how does that work?

I don't know and I doubt anyone does. Or if they do, they don't know how to explain it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 09-05-2020 3:16 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18753
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 92 of 138 (881932)
09-05-2020 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
09-05-2020 3:16 PM


Re: Two Good Apologists
Phat writes:

I have no written material from Vince Vitale, however, and thus can only share an audio podcast.


You could tell us in your own words, which is what you're supposed to do anyway.

Phat writes:

I like Vince because he is philosophical rather than a scriptural literalist, which wouldn't impress you anyway.


Just to remind you that I, for one, am ONLY interested in the Biblical arguments that apologists make. I have no use for philosophical mumbo-jumbo.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 09-05-2020 3:16 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 93 of 138 (881984)
09-07-2020 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by ringo
09-05-2020 9:08 PM


Re: Two Good Apologists
ringo writes:

Just to remind you that I, for one, am ONLY interested in the Biblical arguments that apologists make. I have no use for philosophical mumbo-jumbo.

And just to remind you that I consider Biblical arguments and philosophical arguments as the same thing.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by ringo, posted 09-05-2020 9:08 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 09-08-2020 12:33 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18753
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 94 of 138 (881999)
09-08-2020 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Phat
09-07-2020 3:01 PM


Re: Two Good Apologists
Phat writes:

And just to remind you that I consider Biblical arguments and philosophical arguments as the same thing.


Well, that's just stupid. You can't use philosophical arguments to out-flank the Bible.

I know you're afraid of both kinds of argument but you're not going to avoid them by moving the goalposts.

Genesis 3. Defend the apologists' lies.

The Prodigal Son. Defend your evil exclusivist theology.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 09-07-2020 3:01 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 09-08-2020 4:32 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 95 of 138 (882007)
09-08-2020 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by ringo
09-08-2020 12:33 PM


The Prodigal Son
This may be a bit off topic concerning a Great Depression, although one can argue that a Depression is not time to be giving away all we have.

Anyway...
I know you will accuse me of not defending my argument in my own words, but I learn through studying the beliefs, words, and opinions of others. Heck I even learn from YOU once in awhile.

Wiki writes:

The opening, "A man had two sons" is a storyteller's trope and would immediately bring to mind Cain & Abel, Ishmael & Isaac, and Esau & Jacob. Jesus then confounds the listeners' expectations when the younger son is shown to be foolish.[6]

While a number of commentators see the request of the younger son for his share of the inheritance as "brash, even insolent"[7] and "tantamount to wishing that the father was dead,"[7] Jewish legal scholar Bernard Jackson says "Jewish sources give no support to [the idea] that the prodigal, in seeking the advance, wishes his father dead."[6]

The young man's actions do not lead to success, he squanders his inheritance and he eventually becomes an indentured servant, with the degrading job of looking after pigs, and even envying them for the carob pods they eat.[7] This recalls Proverbs 29:3: "Whoever loves wisdom gives joy to his father, but whoever consorts with harlots squanders his wealth."[v]

Upon his return, his father treats the young man with a generosity far more than he has a right to expect.[7] He is given the best robe, a ring for his finger, and sandals for his feet.[vi] Clothing in the Bible may be symbolic of a character's change in status (see Biblical clothing). In this instance, clothing and accessories represent his rebirth ("was dead and is alive again") and newfound state ("was lost and is found"[vii]).[8] Jewish philosopher Philo observes:[6]

Parents often do not lose thought for their wastrel children.… In the same way, God too…takes thought also for those who live a misspent life, thereby giving them time for reformation, and also keeping within the bounds His own merciful nature.

The Pesikta Rabbati has a similar story:[6]

A king had a son who had gone astray from his father on a journey of a hundred days. His friends said to him, 'Return to your father.' He said, 'I cannot.' Then his father sent word, 'Return as far as you can, and I will come the rest of the way to you.' So God says, 'Return to me, and I will return to you.'

The older son, in contrast, seems to think in terms of "law, merit, and reward,"[7] rather than "love and graciousness."[7] He may represent the Pharisees who were criticizing Jesus.[7]

The last few verses of the parable summarize the tale in accordance with the Jewish teaching of the two ways of acting: the way of life (obedience) and the way of death (sin).[9] God, according to Judaism, rejoices over and grants more graces to repentant sinners than righteous souls who don't need repentance.[10]

Following the Parable of the Lost Sheep and the Parable of the Lost Coin, this is the last of three parables about loss and redemption that Jesus tells after the Pharisees and religious leaders accuse him of welcoming and eating with "sinners."[11] The father's joy described in the parable reflects divine love:[11] the "boundless mercy of God,"[12] and "God's refusal to limit the measure of his grace."[11]

Note the portion I underlined.
In this instance, clothing and accessories represent his rebirth ("was dead and is alive again") and newfound state ("was lost and is found"[vii]).[

I really cant defend exclusivity. What I can defend is the idea that change is evident from the sons perspective. The Father never expected anything more than the son returning home.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 09-08-2020 12:33 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 09-08-2020 4:49 PM Phat has responded
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 09-08-2020 10:40 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32911
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 96 of 138 (882009)
09-08-2020 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
09-08-2020 4:32 PM


Re: The Prodigal Son
Look at the part you underlined and really read what is written.

Nothing in what you underlined points to or indicates or suggests any change in the Prodigal Son but only a possible suggestion of some change in status.

Just as with the conversion of Saul; NOTHING in the story even hints at any change in the nature of the individual.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 09-08-2020 4:32 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 09-09-2020 5:22 AM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18753
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 97 of 138 (882021)
09-08-2020 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
09-08-2020 4:32 PM


Re: The Prodigal Son
Phat writes:

I know you will accuse me of not defending my argument in my own words, but I learn through studying the beliefs, words, and opinions of others.


You haven't learned anything until you can express it in your own words. That's why we have exams at the end of the school term instead of just giving you an A for reading the textbook.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 09-08-2020 4:32 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 98 of 138 (882029)
09-09-2020 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by jar
09-08-2020 4:49 PM


Re: The Prodigal Son
I read the Parable again. Luke 15:11-32.

The Parable is called by several names.

The Parable Of The Two Brothers
The Parable of The Lost Son.
The Parable Of The Loving Father
The Parable Of The Forgiving Father

ringo seems to think that this Parable disproves any exclusivity within Christianity or at least in the eyes of Jesus.

jar writes:

Nothing in what you underlined points to or indicates or suggests any change in the Prodigal Son but only a possible suggestion of some change in status.

You have argued the same argument in regards to Saul vs Paul.

I see change in the attitude of the Prodigal Son.

It starts out:

Luke 15:11-12 writes:

"There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, 'Father, give me my share of the estate.'

He was seeking autonomy from his Father. He left home in search of finding satiety and excitement.
So he loses what his Father gave him. I can somewhat relate. I've lost most of what my late Father gave me. All that I have left is the very house that I live in--my only shelter in this world from being homeless on a street corner. And ringo has the sheer audacity to tell me what I as a Christian need to do. This from an old fool who doesn't even believe in God! (sorry I'm ranting, but I'm still mad at his hubris!)

Anyway, back to the Parable.

Luke 15:14-16 writes:

4 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

This is what makes me mad when debating Jesus with ringo. ringo seems to think that Christians are called to give their very lives up for others as did Jesus but if this is true, (which it might be) then not more than a handful of Christians have done so or are even capable of doing so. This Prodigal used up what his Dad gave him and then hired himself out and yet nobody gave him anything!!! That would drive me crazy! One of my problems is that I think I am owed something. If God wont do it, perhaps Uncle Sam can. If Uncle Sam is broke, then I'm in trouble! But I am standing in Faith that God is more than an abstract concept but is my Father. And my Father would never let me down.

Luke 15:17-20 writes:

"When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.'

See here is where I note a change in the attitude of the Prodigal Son. Where before he demanded his share of what the Father has/had, now he is willing to work for his Father in exchange for being taken care of. You may still argue that only his status had changed and not his inner nature, but I would argue that desperate times call for desperate measures. Who else is going to take care of him? He obviously found out that he couldnt take care of himself!

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 09-08-2020 4:49 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 09-09-2020 7:41 AM Phat has responded
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 09-09-2020 12:13 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32911
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 99 of 138 (882033)
09-09-2020 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Phat
09-09-2020 5:22 AM


and again you show that you do create the god you worship.
Phat writes:

This Prodigal used up what his Dad gave him and then hired himself out and yet nobody gave him anything!!! That would drive me crazy! One of my problems is that I think I am owed something.

And so you create a god that considers YOU as special and gives to you. You want a god that is just like the father in the fable; one that accepts you back unconditionally. But you show that in life you don't behave like that father; you expect people to give up cursing and drinking and gambling and anything else YOU do not think appropriate.

Phat writes:

See here is where I note a change in the attitude of the Prodigal Son. Where before he demanded his share of what the Father has/had, now he is willing to work for his Father in exchange for being taken care of. You may still argue that only his status had changed and not his inner nature, but I would argue that desperate times call for desperate measures. Who else is going to take care of him? He obviously found out that he couldnt take care of himself!

Where is the change?

Did he not hire himself out before returning home?

When he returned home was he treated as one of this father's hired hands?

Might it be that what you want is not to be treated as one of god's hired hands but rather clothed in a fine robe and feed the fatted pig?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 100 of 138 (882034)
09-09-2020 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by jar
09-09-2020 7:41 AM


Re: and again you show that you do create the god you worship.
I hope im not actually that selfish! I do want to feel loved, however. Perhaps I wouldn't be disappointed in a God who included everybody and not just those who claimed sonship or special or exclusive status. But as I examine my heart while typing this reply I will admit that I feel resentment over people who get something for nothing or who take without giving. Introspection can be a bitch.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 09-09-2020 7:41 AM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by ramoss, posted 09-09-2020 12:18 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3174
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 101 of 138 (882038)
09-09-2020 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Phat
09-04-2020 12:46 PM


Re: Hummana Hummana Hummana..Who dooya Trust?
I personally am of the opinion that peter Schiff is a conman. He's basically a gold pumping doomsday predictor. While gold is high right now, it's bound to take a crash when there is less uncertainty in the market.

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ringo
Member
Posts: 18753
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 102 of 138 (882039)
09-09-2020 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Phat
09-09-2020 5:22 AM


Re: The Prodigal Son
Phat writes:

And ringo has the sheer audacity to tell me what I as a Christian need to do.


I'm telling you what JESUS told you to do. And there's no "audacity" involved. It's a direct quote. AND it isn't a one-off either. It's a theme repeated many times in the Bible.

It's about trusting God to take care of you.

Phat writes:

... not more than a handful of Christians have done so or are even capable of doing so.


The church at Rome did it. The woman with two mites did it. The disciples did it. In the Old Testament, the widow who fed Elijah did it. Today a lot of missionaries and clergymen do it.

Again, it's about trusting God to take care of you.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 09-09-2020 5:22 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 09-09-2020 12:22 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply
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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3174
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


(3)
Message 103 of 138 (882040)
09-09-2020 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Phat
09-09-2020 7:49 AM


Re: and again you show that you do create the god you worship.
The trouble I have with God is the people who claim to speak for him. I mean, they tend to be selfish, egotistical, obnoxious, and have all the traits that they say God said to avoid. If God really cared, he'd show up in person, and slam the people who are talking in his name to line their own pockets.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 32911
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 104 of 138 (882041)
09-09-2020 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by ramoss
09-09-2020 12:13 PM


Re: Hummana Hummana Hummana..Who dooya Trust?
But he's perfectly willing to take folks worthless fiat money for his gold.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by ramoss, posted 09-09-2020 12:13 PM ramoss has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32911
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 105 of 138 (882042)
09-09-2020 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by ringo
09-09-2020 12:13 PM


Re: The Prodigal Son
Even Godless Buddhist monks do it.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 09-09-2020 12:13 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
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