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Author Topic:   The Great Depression No One Talks About
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 121 of 138 (882079)
09-10-2020 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by AZPaul3
09-10-2020 6:53 AM


Re: The Cognitive Dissonance Is Loud
Bring this argument over here. Message 185

But if you have any comments on a possible Great Depression, air them here.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by AZPaul3, posted 09-10-2020 6:53 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 122 of 138 (882080)
09-10-2020 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by ringo
09-09-2020 8:27 PM


The Imperfect Storm that No One Talks About
Lets redirect this line of thought over to our other thread. Message 185

But if you have any comments on whether or not the world is heading into a bigger storm than we think we now have, comment here.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by ringo, posted 09-09-2020 8:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by ringo, posted 09-10-2020 12:12 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18753
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 123 of 138 (882089)
09-10-2020 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Phat
09-10-2020 9:47 AM


Re: The Imperfect Storm that No One Talks About
Phat writes:

But if you have any comments on whether or not the world is heading into a bigger storm than we think we now have, comment here.


We have lots of problems coming up, climate change for example. The petty economic problems that you're worried about can be averted.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Phat, posted 09-10-2020 9:47 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 267
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 124 of 138 (882096)
09-10-2020 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Phat
09-09-2020 6:28 PM


Re: A Tall Order For Anyone
Hi Phat,

You got me there. I see it as an unnecessary sacrifice. Also an unwise one.

Yes. You are correct. It would be foolish of you beyond belief to do something as truly absurd as this. We all know that. But the fact of the matter is that it really is what the Bible says. If God will care for the lilies of the field, who don't think about what they will eat or wear...How much more will your Father in Heaven take care of you? This is the Bible; not us. We've also talked about the "Socialism" of the Early Church in other threads I think. The christians sold everything they owned and brought the proceeds to the apostles for general distribution. I think the point here is you should stop preaching to us about the moral superiority of a book, when you yourself don't believe it to be true at the point where the rubber meets the road.

But I'm not asking *you* to give up anything more than your rational mind and to place trust in an invisible and un-evidenced God. You are asking me to give up my shelter and all of my possessions. And yes that's a tall order for anyone.

Your reply here speaks volumes about your actual view of what is real...and not.

p.s. Definitely DON'T give up your shelter and possessions. It would not end well, we all know that.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Phat, posted 09-09-2020 6:28 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by jar, posted 09-10-2020 3:24 PM Aussie has not yet responded

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 267
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


(2)
Message 125 of 138 (882097)
09-10-2020 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Phat
09-10-2020 5:37 AM


Re: Giving It All Up. Put Your Money Where Your Faith Is.
Phat says:

I can sum all of this concern up in one answer. I know Christ beyond simply as a character in a book. I don't have to look up what He says in the book to verify any command or will of His.

What you are saying is that you can feel free to disregard and disobey certain objective commands in the book because you think you know him in a superior light than that given in Scripture.

Some of us actually know the living Christ.

Translation: I won't obey Him.

At best, the book will confirm what He wants us to do but we never limit our interpretation of His Daily Will for us to the character and characters in the Book.

Translation: I won't obey Him.

We believe in confirmation through the living Body of Christ.

Translation: We won't obey Him.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 09-10-2020 5:37 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32911
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


(3)
Message 126 of 138 (882098)
09-10-2020 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Aussie
09-10-2020 3:07 PM


Re: A Tall Order For Anyone
Phat writes:

But I'm not asking *you* to give up anything more than your rational mind and to place trust in an invisible and un-evidenced God. You are asking me to give up my shelter and all of my possessions. And yes that's a tall order for anyone.

What is interesting to me is that Phat and the Apologists ask folk to give up their rational mind and to place trust in an invisible and un-evidenced God yet neither Phat or ANY Apologist is willing to give up their rational mind and to place trust in an invisible and un-evidenced God. If they did then they would all be socialists just like Jesus and the Apostles.

It is classic CCoI compartmentalization and willing failure to honestly address what they say and write.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Aussie, posted 09-10-2020 3:07 PM Aussie has not yet responded

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 267
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 127 of 138 (882099)
09-10-2020 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Phat
09-10-2020 9:21 AM


Re: Topic Refocus
If you think I'm bad you should see some of the people I know.

I know those people you know!!! I used to be one of them, and I remember how batshit crazy they get.

This one is specifically about a Coming Great Depression...

I don't know Phat...you're the only one talking about witches and transsexual pagans here...


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Phat, posted 09-10-2020 9:21 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7911
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 128 of 138 (882103)
09-10-2020 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Phat
09-10-2020 5:37 AM


Re: Giving It All Up. Put Your Money Where Your Faith Is.
Phat writes:

I know Christ beyond simply as a character in a book. I don't have to look up what He says in the book to verify any command or will of His.

What you're saying is that the voice in your head knows better what Jesus wants than the what is written in the bible. You're own personal god.

Whatisname has a personal god in his head too and his god tells him that you're going to hell because you are not a Catholic.

Now one of you or your gods is wrong. What are we to make of that?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 09-10-2020 5:37 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 704
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


Message 129 of 138 (882106)
09-10-2020 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
09-04-2020 12:07 PM


Re: The Bill will get paid
i dont trust people who dont trust God.

Well god doesn't exist so either produce god or stop with this line of argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 09-04-2020 12:07 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by jar, posted 09-10-2020 8:19 PM kjsimons has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32911
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 130 of 138 (882107)
09-10-2020 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by kjsimons
09-10-2020 8:02 PM


Re: The Bill will get paid
Phat does not trust God. The Apologists do not trust God. They both just lie about trusting God.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by kjsimons, posted 09-10-2020 8:02 PM kjsimons has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Phat, posted 09-11-2020 12:03 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 131 of 138 (882111)
09-11-2020 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by jar
09-10-2020 8:19 PM


Re: The Bill will get paid
jar writes:

Phat does not trust God. The Apologists do not trust God. They both just lie about trusting God.

And you know this because...?

I could whine like you do about being misrepresented but I'm curious what drew you to your conclusions?

And why you lump all of the apologists together.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by jar, posted 09-10-2020 8:19 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by jar, posted 09-11-2020 7:44 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32911
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 132 of 138 (882113)
09-11-2020 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Phat
09-11-2020 12:03 AM


Re: The Bill will get paid
You said that you do not trust people who do not trust God.

Did you trust God to pay your debts?

Do you trust God to take care of you if you lose your job or are homeless?

Do you trust God to heal your ills?

Do you give up your rational mind and to place trust in an invisible and un-evidenced God.

No Phat, you don't.

You don't give everything away, you count on getting paid by your employer and getting job protection from your union and medical care from doctors and hospitals and protection by the police and fire departments.

And you'd be stupid not to count on those things that are not invisible and unevidenced.

Are any of the things I point out misrepresentations of what you do and have done?

Are those things also not true of EVERY Apologist?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Phat, posted 09-11-2020 12:03 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 09-11-2020 10:27 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 133 of 138 (882114)
09-11-2020 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by jar
09-11-2020 7:44 AM


My God Supplies All My Needs Indirectly
You said that you do not trust people who do not trust God.
I dont trust people who claim that God either does not exist or is an abstract unprovable concept Who is not personal. The reason is that I believe that there is a spiritual realm and that everyone intrinsically (intuitively?) knows about God as a concept....though many dont give the concept any more thought than I would Loki. When I accepted Jesus Christ into my heart in 1993, I felt a distinct change which has spurred me on to this very day to defend it...which I suppose makes me an apologist of sorts.

Did you trust God to pay your debts?
When I got in over my head in debt, I knew that it was my fault, even though I was an addict of sorts. I knew that my life at that point was unmanageable. When I had to go to court, you know I was praying for Gods influence over my own stability and clearheadedness and honesty, as well as for any judge that might be there. I did not pray that the creditors would not show up, though in retrospect I am glad that they chose not to pursue me. I was in a hot mess, and have learned from that experience and was given the strength to overcome that addiction.

Do you trust God to take care of you if you lose your job or are homeless?
Yes and No. I am aware that all of the evidence shows that only people help other people. There is no invisible hand appearing from the skies. That being said, there is an invisible Spirit that knows all things and cares for all people. On my way to work each day, I thank Him for my job, and if I see these homeless folks asking for change on the corners, I often give them some. I know that they are depending on me to help them. Whether they pray or not I have no clue, but I do pray for them also.

Do you trust God to heal your ills?
I trust God to give me wisdom. What you are asking of me is to say I either trust God or science, but it is not an either/or option. I believe that the very fact that humans are alive is evidence of the Holy Spirit on this planet. God has an influence within people of science.(yes, He cares for atheists too!) Though I believe He desires that we all try and know Him

Do you give up your rational mind and to place trust in an invisible and UN-evidenced God.

I do not give up my rational mind but I do pray every day and I do believe that God responds not simply through favoring me but through challenging me to think, as He did (through EvC atheists none the less!) as to why I would never give up all that I had. It is a question still heavy on my mind and heart, though I in no way feel guilty over not doing it. Very few people would. Though ringo claims examples in the Bible of people who did, he himself would never do so and yet expects any honest follower to do what the book says their Lord tells them to do. I'm still not through arguing that one!

No Phat, you don't.

You don't give everything away, you count on getting paid by your employer and getting job protection from your union and medical care from doctors and hospitals and protection by the police and fire departments.

And you'd be stupid not to count on those things that are not invisible and unevidenced.

Are any of the things I point out misrepresentations of what you do and have done?

Yet you say that I lie to myself. (or to others) I am well aware that I dont give everything away. I am well aware that I don't trust God alone, 100% to provide for my needs and take care of me.

Are those things also not true of EVERY Apologist?
What makes a so-called apologist any different from you? Are you charging them with hiding whats in the fine print? ALL of them? Seriously, jar.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by jar, posted 09-11-2020 7:44 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by jar, posted 09-11-2020 10:35 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32911
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 134 of 138 (882115)
09-11-2020 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Phat
09-11-2020 10:27 AM


Re: My God Supplies All My Needs Indirectly
Did you say "But I'm not asking *you* to give up anything more than your rational mind and to place trust in an invisible and un-evidenced God. "

Are you willing to give up your rational mind and to place trust in an invisible and un-evidenced God?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 09-11-2020 10:27 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Phat, posted 09-11-2020 10:41 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 135 of 138 (882116)
09-11-2020 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by jar
09-11-2020 10:35 AM


Re: My God Supplies All My Needs Indirectly
I pray every day to get to know God better. I most definitely don't believe that everything He said to others in the book was intended for me. What He told the Rich Young Ruler was not what He expected from Zacheus the Tax Collector.
Though He commended the widow with two mites, he only mentioned her great faith. He did not directly condemn everyone else for giving less--i'm sure He realized that most are weaker than that desperate widow.
Are you willing to give up your rational mind
No. I only say this to those who dont consider that God may be real.
...and to place trust in an invisible and un-evidenced God?
I try and trust Him more each day. I realize that I fall short. I don't expect Him to magically take care of me without changing my perspective.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by jar, posted 09-11-2020 10:35 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 09-11-2020 10:58 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 137 by ringo, posted 09-11-2020 12:14 PM Phat has responded

  
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