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Author Topic:   Miracle Of The Sun & Other Musings
dwise1
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Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 19 of 327 (880804)
08-11-2020 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by PaulK
08-11-2020 2:25 PM


Re: Proudly Roman Catholic
Of course not!
No TRUE BELIEVER would ever look at the actual evidence. Why would anyone so enthralled (AKA "enslaved") with belief ever wish to view the facts? To ever begin to consider what had actually happened?
Don't most religious positions require you to ignore what had actually happened?

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 24 of 327 (880817)
08-11-2020 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trump won
08-11-2020 12:03 AM


Re: Proudly Roman Catholic
I personally saw a miracle, you f**king c**k s**kers! NOT ONLY THAT, but an entire theatre of witnesses saw it as well! So it is an undeniable MIRACLE!
One night on a cruise to the south of Spain out of Southampton (lovely place; I would recommend it, both of them), the evening show was a magician. He had a sketch pad. On one page he sketched a bowling ball and ... MIRACLE!!!!!! ... a bowling ball suddenly dropped out of that sketch pad and down onto the stage. MIRACLE!! And not only that but ON CUE!!!!!!!.
So you have some witnesses to some kind of refractive light show. And I have a auditotrium full of witnesses to a bowling ball falling out of a sketch book. Whom are you going to believe?
To reiterate, I was not the only person to witness that event with my own eyes (rather that was witnessed by hundreds or far more), .

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 28 of 327 (880827)
08-12-2020 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
08-11-2020 9:06 PM


Re: Proudly Roman Catholic
So you have no way to explain that "miracle" of a bowling ball falling out of a sketch pad. Instead, you resort of an ad hominem attack. Typical, so sadly typical.
The "magic" of a stage magician works for the same reason that a natural phenomenon being observed by a scientifically ignorant layman does. You cannot explain how it happened, so you assume magic. There is no difference whatsoever.
Here's a quote from one of my signatures here:
quote:
Gentry's case depends upon his halos remaining a mystery. Once a naturalistic explanation is discovered, his claim of a supernatural origin is washed up. So he will not give aid or support to suggestions that might resolve the mystery. Science works toward an increase in knowledge; creationism depends upon a lack of it. Science promotes the open-ended search; creationism supports giving up and looking no further. It is clear which method Gentry advocates.
("Gentry's Tiny Mystery -- Unsupported by Geology" by J. Richard Wakefield, Creation/Evolution Issue XXII, Winter 1987-1988, pp 31-32)
Another quote from Wakefield that I cannot find the source for says something like:
quote:
When a scientist sees a mystery, he wants to solve it. When a creationist sees a mystery, he identifies it as "God" and so wants it to remain a mystery.
That is why a supernatural-based "science" would actually kill science.
As an edit, I might also point out that human magicians seek to trick people. There is no indication that a Deity would have any need to do so.
And yet creationists of all stripes eventually end up resorting to the Omphalos Argument (see my page at No webpage found at provided URL: http://cre-ev.dwise1.net/omphalos.html). All the serious ones (including leading creationist master debaters Duane Gish and Henry Morris) end up having to explain away why all the evidence does indeed point to evolution and an old earth. Because the "unnamed" Creator created everything with a false history that would prove an old earth if you didn't already know that it was all just a trick designed to fool you.
Who's your Sky Daddy? Loki!
... to trick people. There is no indication that a Deity would have any need to do so.
And yet that is exactly what creationists end up arguing for. Dude! Get with the program already!
That is also known as "Last Thursdayism" which argues that the universe was created last Thursday with all the evidence for it having existed long before that, including our own obviously false personal memories, being complete fabrications that never ever happened.
Of course, that is very hotly challenged by the Last Wednesdayists while the Last Tuesdayists know for a fact that both of the other parties are completely wrong.
Which of those three churches do you belong to in your service of your trickster god?
Ask yourself what it is about belief in general that you find so distasteful and threatening.
Unlike yourself, I have absolutely no problem with belief in general. Rather, the problem that I have is with ass wipes who want to force their own gross ignorance and arrogance on others, especially when they seek to destroy education and/or to dictate oppressive laws in the service of their own particular false interpretations of what their imaginary god wants.

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 29 of 327 (880828)
08-12-2020 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
08-11-2020 10:04 PM


Re: Proudly Roman Catholic
So you are essentially defining what God can do? Oh I get it...God is limited by science.
Isn't that what every single creationist does? Instead of accepting the universe as the Creator created it, they dare to dictate to God what He could or could not do. How utterly arrogant!
Science studies how the universe works. You want to claim that it somehow works entirely differently and arbitrarily. Good luck with that idiotic approach!
Also, we have found that your geocentrism doesn't work. Within our frame of reference, the sun does not move! Why you insist on refusing to accept that very simple fact, I do not know nor could I ever understand. The sun does not move, but rather the earth does. And if the earth were to move in such a manner to make it appear that the sun stops or jitters around, then the g-forces placed on everybody on earth would be devastating reducing all of us to chunky salsa -- inertial dampeners only exist in Star Trek, or didn't you know that either?
Please pull your head out of your nether orifice and learn something! Like heliocentrism, to start with!

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 79 of 327 (881416)
08-23-2020 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by ringo
08-23-2020 9:54 AM


Re: Scoffers Will Scoff
The cat might be in Schrdinger's Caf on the campus of the Vienna University of Technology (Technische Universitt Wien, TU Wien) at the corner of Wiedner Hauptstrae and Schaurhofergasse on the way from Karlsplatz to Operngasse (where we stayed). The caf was always closed when we walked past so we never went in (though we did window shop their selection of Big Bang Theory, DC, and Marvel themed merchandise including science project kits). We tried to look in to spot that cat's box, but it was always too dark to see it. So the box may or may not be in the caf, but if we went in to find it then it will have been removed.

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 114 of 327 (881943)
09-06-2020 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by ringo
09-06-2020 1:24 PM


When I read the New Testament all the way through (twice), I was struck by the stark difference between the two halves.
I actually liked a number of Jesus' teachings, but those could only be found in the Gospels. Then once Paul and the others got a hold of it, it changed from "the religion of Jesus" to "the religion about the Christ". And it was when they turned their back on Jesus and replaced him with the Christ that it all turned weird.

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 167 of 327 (882018)
09-08-2020 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by jar
09-08-2020 4:52 PM


Re: The Church Belongs To Everyone
A couple decades ago I served on our church's board as we were merging two congregations to form a new one with new by-laws, etc.
Our minister strongly suggested that we include in the new by-laws a provision that excluded new members from voting in a congregational meeting; ie, only members who had been with the church for at least several months be allowed to vote. He described a scam in which, just before a congregational meeting, a church is suddenly flooded with a large number of new members who then vote to sell the church property to one particular buyer. Without by-laws to prevent that from happening, a church could not defend one of its most valuable assets.

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(4)
Message 288 of 327 (882354)
09-18-2020 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Phat
09-18-2020 12:33 PM


Re: Evidence Based Belief and Refusal to accept anything unexplained
You claim to have experienced many of the same (or similar) unexplained events that I have, and you too easily rejected them...as does AZ Paul3, simply because you already conclude that they simply cant happen.
No, they are doing your job for you!
quote:
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Instead of grasping any little thing that you do not immediately understand and proclaiming it to be supernatural and hence proof of or evidence for your beliefs in the supernatural, you need to be testing and vetting each and every one to the fullest extent. You are not the only one who pays the price for not doing your duty (people dismiss you as a religious nut), but your religion and gods also pay the price of being dismissed as nonsense. As Saint Augustine is quoted from "De Genese ad litteram" (fourth century -- follow link for more complete text):
quote:
It very often happens that there is some question as to the earth or the sky, or the other elements of this world -- respecting which one who is not a Christian has knowledge derived from most certain reasoning or observation, and it is very disgraceful and mischievous and of all things to be carefully avoided, that a Christian speaking of such matters as being according to the Christian Scriptures, should be heard by an unbeliever talking such nonsense that the unbeliever perceiving him to be as wide of the mark as east from west, can hardly restrain himself from laughing.
And the real evil is not that a man is subjected to derision because of his error, but it is that to profane eyes, our authors (that is to say, the sacred authors) are regarded as having had such thoughts; and are also exposed to blame and scorn upon the score of ignorance, to the greatest possible misfortune of people whom we wish to save. For, in fine, these profane people happen upon a Christian busy in making mistakes on a subject which they know perfectly well; how, then, will they believe these holy books? ...
I have myself seen or heard of many such "inexplicable-ergo-supernatural" things; eg:
  • Two Christian fundamentalist testified to me separately how they had both personally fought against real demons who were holding them down, immobile and unable to cry out for help, just as they were awakening. Indisputable proof of the supernatural!
    Neither had heard of sleep paralysis nor wished to hear about it. But enough people have so they just either laugh out loud or back off for fear that the lunacy might be contagious.
  • I saw a miracle in the sky over a mountain on fire. There was a plume of thick smoke rising up from the mountain until it stopped and started to spread out. Nestled right on that of that dirty smoke was a little pure white cloud. Miracle!
    Actually, that was a pyrocumulus cloud. Quite common and nothing supernatural about it.
  • Out in the dry desert with clear skies, I watched a small cloud suddenly appear, grow, then shrink and disappear, only to reappear within minutes. Over and over again. Not that could not have been natural!
    Actually, yes it was quite natural. A mass of air moving above and below a thermocline.
  • One afternoon I was driving east when I saw a multicolored amorphous apparition appear in the sky like a rainbow only forming a blob. A divine vision!
    No. Stopping and looking at it more closely, I could see that it was a cloud that was acting as a kind of projection screen for sunlight (coming from behind me) that had been refracted to form a spectrum of colors.
  • There are rooms that are haunted. Everybody who enters the room feels dread and many also see apparitions out of the corner of their eye. Ghosties!
    No, infrasound. In one such room, it became haunted after air conditioning had been installed just outside. The dimensions of the room (this was in a basement as I recall) were just right to form a resonating chamber that amplified frequencies of sound below our ability to hear them, but our bodies can still sense them invoking an emotional response. Infrasound can also stimulate the eye causing visual hallucinations. That infrasound was present was proven by a rod being held horizontally on one end in a vise; that rod was vibrating.
  • Similarly, there have been several times when I could sense an earthquake seconds before it arrived. Am I psychic and can predict earthquakes?
    No, that would again be infrasound that my body was sensing before the actual shaking.
The main reason why our immediate response is to question and to look for a natural explanation is because so far every single phenomenon observed has proven to have a natural explanation.
It is your duty to test every event that you think could be supernatural. The damage you do by shirking that duty is not only to yourself.
Edited by dwise1, : added link for infrasound

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