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Author Topic:   Miracle Of The Sun & Other Musings
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5309
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 151 of 294 (881992)
09-07-2020 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by youwerecreatedbyjc
09-07-2020 4:15 PM


Never seen anything like this mercy out of any of the Abrahamic traditions.

What's that called? Bait and switch marketing?

Can be effective. But at this level, that's just fuckin evil ... again.

Do you guys do anything but evil?

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 7911
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 152 of 294 (881997)
09-08-2020 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by youwerecreatedbyjc
09-07-2020 4:15 PM


CC writes:

Truly, God’s mercy is forever; it never ends, it never runs out, it never gives up when faced with closed doors, and it never tires. In this forever we find strength in moments of trial and weakness because we are sure that God does not abandon us. He remains with us forever.” Pope Francis

Meanwhile, back in reality here on earth, Pope Francis is systematically hiding $2bn of assets across the USA in an attempt to restrict the amount of damages it has to pay to it's thousands of child rape victims.

Lawyers and accountants are creating trusts, locking assets, marking-down down values (Often to zero) and moving accounts and finaces out of diocese. All very corporate America - institutional fraud following abuse.

quote:
Catholic Church Shields $2 Billion in Assets to Limit Abuse Payouts

Dioceses are aggressively moving and reclassifying holdings to shrink the value of their bankruptcy estates.


Detailed Bloomberg article

Catholic Church Shields $2 Billion in Assets to Limit Abuse Payouts


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 18755
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 153 of 294 (881998)
09-08-2020 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Phat
09-07-2020 2:43 PM


Re: Selling All One Has
Phat writes:

So let me get this straight. Only those who claim to believe in Jesus are supposed to give it all up?


Seriously? You have to ask that question?

The rich young ruler asked, "What must I do to be saved?" Jesus answered, "Sell what you have and give to the poor."

If I don't believe I need to be saved, how the @#$%ing hell does that apply to me? If I don't believe Jesus ever existed, why the @#$%ing hell would I do what He supposedly said? And if YOU believe He was real, why the @#$%ing hell don't YOU do what He said?

Phat writes:

The early believers appeared to be 100% all in. They knew the power of the Risen Christ as well as knowing Him personally before He was crucified.


No, the Roman church did not know Jesus before He was crucified. Even Paul, who started the Roman church, did not know Jesus before He was crucified. They had the same source that you have, the supposed words of Jesus that were later recorded in the gospels.

Phat writes:

Christianity was already becoming watered down...


How is that an excuse for you to keep watering it down?

Phat writes:

And as to the edict that you often push to sell all that one has, might I remind you that it was a rich young ruler who was advised to do such a thing.


It wasn't "advice". It was what he MUST do to be saved.

And as I have told you before, it isn't about how much you give. It's about how much you hold back. The lady who gave two mites held back nothing. The widow who fed Elijah held back nothing. Ananias and Sapphira held back and they were killed for it.

Phat writes:

Nowhere is the implication that anyone of modest means should give up all they have and become poor simply to appease Jesus.


That's obviously false. The Roman church.

Edited by ringo, : Added last quote.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

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jar
Member
Posts: 32915
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 154 of 294 (882000)
09-08-2020 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by ringo
09-08-2020 12:25 PM


Re: Selling All One Has
ringo writes:

No, the Roman church did not know Jesus before He was crucified. Even Paul, who started the Roman church, did not know Jesus before He was crucified. They had the same source that you have, the supposed words of Jesus that were later recorded in the gospels.

Sorta kinda not exactly.

Peter likely knew Jesus directly and Peter was the head of the Church in Rome. Paul though had far more influence in creating "Christianity" and Paul never knew or met or even knew much about Jesus.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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ringo
Member
Posts: 18755
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 155 of 294 (882002)
09-08-2020 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by jar
09-08-2020 12:43 PM


Re: Selling All One Has
jar writes:

Peter likely knew Jesus directly and Peter was the head of the Church in Rome.


I stand corrected.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

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Phat
Member
Posts: 14597
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 156 of 294 (882003)
09-08-2020 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by jar
09-08-2020 12:43 PM


Catholic Can O Worms
This argument was never really investigated by me until now, and it basically brings up some larger arguments on the origins, validities, and overarching purpose of Christianity and whether the only real "Clubs" are the Catholic ones.

My search started at Catholic Answers. Was Peter In Rome?

The tract basically spells out the ideas touted by Protestants and Catholic scholars alike as they discuss the establishment of the Papacy. Some points brought up:

quote:
  • Protestants say Christ never appointed Peter as the earthly head for the simple reason that the Church has no earthly head and was never meant to have one. Christ is the Church’s one foundation, in any possible sense of that term. The papacy, they say, arose out of fifth- or sixth-century politics, both secular and ecclesiastical. It has not been established by Christ, even though supposed “successors” to Peter (and their defenders) claim it was.

  • After all, his being in Rome would not itself prove the existence of the papacy. In fact, it would be a false inference to say he must have been the first pope since he was in Rome and later popes ruled from Rome. With that logic, Paul would have been the first pope, too, since he was an apostle and went to Rome.

  • Admittedly, the Bible nowhere explicitly says Peter was in Rome; but, on the other hand, it doesn’t say he wasn’t. In fact, very little is said about where he, or any of the apostles other than Paul, went in the years after the Ascension. For the most part, we have to rely on books other than the New Testament for information about what happened to the apostles in later years.

  • The authorities knew that Peter was a leader of the Church, and the Church, under Roman law, was considered organized atheism. Peter would do himself, not to mention those with him, no service by advertising his presence in the capital. Why encourage a manhunt?

  • William A. Jurgens, in his three-volume The Faith of the Early Fathers, a masterly compendium that cites at length everything from the Didache to John Damascene, includes thirty references to this question, divided, in the index, about evenly between the statements that “Peter came to Rome and died there” and that “Peter established his See at Rome and made the bishop of Rome his successor in the primacy.” A few examples must suffice, but they and other early references demonstrate that there can be no question that the universal—and very early—position was that Peter certainly did end up in the capital of the empire.

  • Tertullian, in The Demurrer Against the Heretics (A.D. 200), noted of Rome, “How happy is that church . . . where Peter endured a passion like that of the Lord, where Paul was crowned in a death like John’s [referring to John the Baptist, both he and Paul being beheaded].” Protestants admit Paul died in Rome, so the implication from Tertullian is that Peter also must have been there.

  • In his Letter to the Romans (A.D. 110), Ignatius of Antioch remarked that he could not command the Roman Christians the way Peter and Paul once did, such a comment making sense only if Peter had been a leader, if not the leader, of the church in Rome.

    Irenaeus, in Against Heresies (A.D. 190), said that Matthew wrote his Gospel “while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church.” A few lines later he notes that Linus was named as Peter’s successor, that is, the second pope, and that next in line were Anacletus (also known as Cletus), and then Clement of Rome.


  • I knew about the Five Cities where early Catholic Christianity began. I fully agree wwith jar that the word "Catholic" refers to the Body of Believers on earth and not the church in Rome. As a Protestant, I embrace the idea of one universal church yet would only add that I believe that not everyone who claimed membership was in fact a member. A member, I would assert, was one who had the Holy Spirit (as *all* in the upper room in Acts certainly had.)

    Later wolves in sheeps(or shepherds) clothing attempted to use the papacy and position within early organized religion to further their own carnal political and material lusts on planet earth. In taking a few courses in college on European History, I also saw the great seesaw struggle between Popes vs Kings and early Monarchs within Europe. The Protestant Reformation was initially a breath of fresh air for true be;lievers, (I know I sound like Faith! ) but it too later succumbed to the all-too-human tendency to shirk ones spirtual awareness in pursuit of earthly lusts. Down through the ages, the Church Universal, as I will call us in order to differentiate Catholicism from the pagan offshoots of the Ecclesiastic Body has survived to this day just as Jesus told Peter it would.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14597
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 157 of 294 (882004)
    09-08-2020 2:10 PM
    Reply to: Message 155 by ringo
    09-08-2020 12:46 PM


    And As For Ringo & His Logic...
    Phat writes:

    So let me get this straight. Only those who claim to believe in Jesus are supposed to give it all up?


    Seriously? You have to ask that question?
    Indeed I do. Your colorful cursing shows me all I need to know about your emotional opinion on the matter!

    ringo writes:

    The rich young ruler asked, "What must I do to be saved?" Jesus answered, "Sell what you have and give to the poor."

    If I don't believe I need to be saved, how the @#$%ing hell does that apply to me? If I don't believe Jesus ever existed, why the @#$%ing hell would I do what He supposedly said? And if YOU believe He was real, why the @#$%ing hell don't YOU do what He said?

    Because what you believe and what I believe are no indication of reality. If GOD is more than a human concept and if Jesus is His Son, (and not Elmer Gantry) then if you expect to charge me with listening to Jesus, you darn well better do the same thing and sell that house of yours and go live in the shelter with the spare change artists. Perhaps universal socialism will take care of all of us, including the widow minus two mites.

    Phat writes:

    The early believers appeared to be 100% all in. They knew the power of the Risen Christ as well as knowing Him personally before He was crucified.


    ringo writes:

    No, the Roman church did not know Jesus before He was crucified. Even Paul, who started the Roman church, did not know Jesus before He was crucified. They had the same source that you have, the supposed words of Jesus that were later recorded in the gospels.

    By "early church" I meant the believers in Acts, the ones who gave all they had and laid it at the Apostles feet. Many of them had seen Jesus while He was alive in the flesh and most all of them certainly knew Peter. The scene could have been Jerusalem just as easily as it could have been Rome.

    Phat writes:

    Christianity was already becoming watered down...


    ringo writes:

    How is that an excuse for you to keep watering it down?

    And how am I watering it down? By daring to keep my house for my shelter in life? Or by questioning Leftist politics?

    Phat writes:

    And as to the edict that you often push to sell all that one has, might I remind you that it was a rich young ruler who was advised to do such a thing.


    ringo writes:

    It wasn't "advice". It was what he MUST do to be saved.

    And as I have told you before, it isn't about how much you give. It's about how much you hold back. The lady who gave two mites held back nothing. The widow who fed Elijah held back nothing. Ananias and Sapphira held back and they were killed for it.

    How convenient it must be to hold the Christianss accountable to the message that they believe in while exempting yourself from that same message. If I give it all up *YOU* give it all up, Pal. The difference is, the socialists will make it a mandatory law. Jesus did not have the rich young ruler arrested for refusing to listen to Him.

    Phat writes:

    Nowhere is the implication that anyone of modest means should give up all they have and become poor simply to appease Jesus.


    That's obviously false. The Roman church.

    jar corrected both of us. Note my post above. And note one thing about Peter mentioned in Catholic Answers:

    quote:
    Clement of Alexandria wrote at the turn of the third century. A fragment of his work Sketches is preserved in Eusebius of Caesarea’s Ecclesiastical History, the first history of the Church. Clement wrote, “When Peter preached the word publicly at Rome, and declared the gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had been for a long time his follower and who remembered his sayings, should write down what had been proclaimed.”

    Lactantius, in a treatise called The Death of the Persecutors, written around 318, noted that “When Nero was already reigning [Nero reigned from 54–68], Peter came to Rome, where, in virtue of the performance of certain miracles which he worked by that power of God which had been given to him, he converted many to righteousness and established a firm and steadfast temple to God.”


    Peter was not simply some Bozo with a bullhorn trying to get money from the crowd. He had the Spirit.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14597
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 158 of 294 (882005)
    09-08-2020 2:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 152 by Tangle
    09-08-2020 10:01 AM


    The Church Belongs To Everyone
    Tangle writes:

    Meanwhile, back in reality here on earth, Pope Francis is systematically hiding $2bn of assets across the USA in an attempt to restrict the amount of damages it has to pay to it's thousands of child rape victims.

    Lawyers and accountants are creating trusts, locking assets, marking-down down values (Often to zero) and moving accounts and finaces out of diocese. All very corporate America - institutional fraud following abuse.

    It makes no sense for the victim to be awarded the church building when the church building belongs to everyone in the church. Just as it would make no sense to award the social security trust funds to victims of early American oppression.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 152 by Tangle, posted 09-08-2020 10:01 AM Tangle has responded

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    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 7911
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 159 of 294 (882008)
    09-08-2020 4:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 158 by Phat
    09-08-2020 2:46 PM


    Re: The Church Belongs To Everyone
    Phat writes:

    It makes no sense for the victim to be awarded the church building when the church building belongs to everyone in the church.

    The reason that the accountants and lawyers are able to do these things is exactly because they are not owned by 'everyone in the church' - even though 'everyone in the church' who actually paid for it thought that they did.

    Do you know who or what owns your church? Actually owns it? Has the power to sell it? Mortgage it?


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 158 by Phat, posted 09-08-2020 2:46 PM Phat has not yet responded

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    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32915
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 160 of 294 (882010)
    09-08-2020 4:52 PM
    Reply to: Message 159 by Tangle
    09-08-2020 4:46 PM


    Re: The Church Belongs To Everyone
    Actually in many instances it is quite clear who owns a church and who has the right to sell it. For example my church and the property is owned by the Diocese and the Bishop of the Diocese can sell it.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
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    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 7911
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 161 of 294 (882011)
    09-08-2020 5:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 160 by jar
    09-08-2020 4:52 PM


    Re: The Church Belongs To Everyone
    Jar writes:

    Actually in many instances it is quite clear who owns a church and who has the right to sell it. For example my church and the property is owned by the Diocese and the Bishop of the Diocese can sell it.

    And once sold, where does the money go?


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 160 by jar, posted 09-08-2020 4:52 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 162 by jar, posted 09-08-2020 5:07 PM Tangle has responded
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    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32915
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 162 of 294 (882012)
    09-08-2020 5:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 161 by Tangle
    09-08-2020 5:04 PM


    Re: The Church Belongs To Everyone
    Back into the Diocese coffers.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 161 by Tangle, posted 09-08-2020 5:04 PM Tangle has responded

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    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 7911
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 163 of 294 (882013)
    09-08-2020 5:10 PM
    Reply to: Message 162 by jar
    09-08-2020 5:07 PM


    Re: The Church Belongs To Everyone
    jar writes:

    Back into the Diocese coffers.

    I think you might be being a tad naive, but I know nothing of your church and financial structure.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 162 by jar, posted 09-08-2020 5:07 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 164 by jar, posted 09-08-2020 5:20 PM Tangle has not yet responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32915
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 164 of 294 (882014)
    09-08-2020 5:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 163 by Tangle
    09-08-2020 5:10 PM


    Re: The Church Belongs To Everyone
    Actually the finances are pretty much open and clear. The Diocese owns church property including any structures on the property. Most of the established Christian Sects do have pretty good financial controls and in fact the point you are making about the Roman Catholic Church hiding assets is a good example to support such control. In the major sects it is far harder to transfer monies into individuals pockets.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
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    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 5309
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 2.7


    Message 165 of 294 (882016)
    09-08-2020 5:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 161 by Tangle
    09-08-2020 5:04 PM


    Re: The Church Belongs To Everyone
    Since in most cases a church doesn't sell its buildings without properties more appropriate to its future in mind I would guess the funds from the sales would go pretty much directly into escrow on the new properties.

    As I understand, most of the national and international cults like the RCC and its protestant hangers-on have rather restrictive cannons on the purchase and sale of properties. If it's not into a specific building fund set up for that purpose, the cash flow is usually into the operating accounts of the archdiocese.


    Factio Republicana delenda est.
    I am antifa.

    This message is a reply to:
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