Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 72 (9010 total)
59 online now:
jar (1 member, 58 visitors)
Newest Member: Burrawang
Post Volume: Total: 881,717 Year: 13,465/23,288 Month: 395/795 Week: 96/95 Day: 31/19 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Miracle Of The Sun & Other Musings
jar
Member
Posts: 32970
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 256 of 327 (882305)
09-17-2020 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Phat
09-17-2020 11:33 AM


Re: Origins of jars Theology
Phat writes:

Apologetics teaches that Jesus is God. It seems that you were taught that God is a product of human imagination and that GOD is forever unknowable until perhaps after death.

No Phat, I was never taught that. Stop posting porkies.

The only possible conclusion that might be evidence based is that all God(s) & god(s) that have ever been discussed have been products solely of the human imagination. How else can you explain the tens of thousands of gods humans have believed in or the fact that even in the Bible we see constantly evolving descriptions of god, each of which is mutually exclusive from all the other god characters in the stories.

I was taught to think Phat and that is the difference. I was not taught to shut my mind down and simply accept utter nonsense.

Phat writes:

Whats wrong with "marketing the concept" that Jesus is God? (Or more correctly GOD) and if you were somehow taught that Apologetic s was evil, where on earth can you even assume that GOD will help you when you wont even let Jesus do it?

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Phat writes:

You evidently refuse the idea that Jesus is God.

No Phat, I accept the evidence that even in the Bible there are different characters call Jesus and each presents the Jesus that that author created.

Phat writes:

You evidently support the idea that humans universally make the Gods they create.

No Phat. All the evidence supports the idea that humans universally make the Gods they create. But feel free to present the evidence or even reasoned argument that might refute the evidence.

Phat writes:

Yet you wont accept that Jesus is this GOD.

Which Jesus Phat? Which of the vastly different versions of Jesus found in the New Testament is the real Jesus?

Evidence or reasoned argument Phat. Present evidence or at least some reasoned argument.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Phat, posted 09-17-2020 11:33 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 257 of 327 (882306)
09-17-2020 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Phat
09-16-2020 1:37 PM


Re: The Uncaused First Cause Argument
Phat writes:

Personally, I always say that it makes more sense to me that Mind came before Matter.


I can't fathom how anybody could think that makes sense.

We know that the human mind interacts directly with matter - e.g. it can be influences by drugs. A vastly more complex mind that doesn't depend on matter, such as a god's, can not be anything more than wishful thinking on your part.

Phat writes:

But your whole premise of "In The Beginning, Chemicals" is an ode to Physicalism otherwise known as Materialism.


I don't subscribe to any kind of philosophical mumbo-jumbo. I just deal with what we know objectively to exist.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 09-16-2020 1:37 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 258 of 327 (882307)
09-17-2020 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Phat
09-17-2020 9:14 AM


Re: Ringo Thinks The Early Church In Rome Was The Church In Acts
Phat writes:

Even Satan is useful to God, however.


Of Course he is. He's one of God's Cabinet ministers. (See the Book of Job.)

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Phat, posted 09-17-2020 9:14 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 259 of 327 (882308)
09-17-2020 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Phat
09-17-2020 9:55 AM


Re: A Couple Of Notes
Phat writes:

Satan has a bag of tricks and the battle in the supernatural realm between good and evil is much bigger and more powerful than any rational scientifically minded person could ever guess.


On the contrary, that "battle" is tiny enough to fit in your mind, where it came from.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Phat, posted 09-17-2020 9:55 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Phat, posted 09-17-2020 4:57 PM ringo has responded

  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1164
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 7.9


(2)
Message 260 of 327 (882310)
09-17-2020 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Fuckdamods
09-17-2020 2:11 AM


Code
Well for certain the universe does not operate on code or anything remotely like it. That was ruled out by the Kochen-Specker and Bell theorems in the 50s and 60s and the experiments confirming them which proved the notion of the universe being in anyway like "code" was false.

Code suggests something like a computer program, i.e. has a state that is then updated into a new state by some rules. This was the Newtonian-Laplacian paradigm where the "state" went by various names and the "rules/algorithms" were known as the "laws of nature". Physics dropped this whole paradigm in the late 1920s and per the theorems above it was shown that it will never be the paradigm again.

Edited by Son Goku, : Clarity of timeline


This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Fuckdamods, posted 09-17-2020 2:11 AM Fuckdamods has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Fuckdamods, posted 09-18-2020 12:47 AM Son Goku has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14677
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 261 of 327 (882311)
09-17-2020 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by ringo
09-17-2020 12:29 PM


Re: A Couple Of Notes
So how do you explain that I have "seen" the supernatural? Not once but several times? Stage Hypnosis?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by ringo, posted 09-17-2020 12:29 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Tangle, posted 09-17-2020 5:42 PM Phat has responded
 Message 265 by ringo, posted 09-17-2020 8:27 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7959
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 262 of 327 (882312)
09-17-2020 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Phat
09-17-2020 4:57 PM


Re: A Couple Of Notes
Phat writes:

So how do you explain that I have "seen" the supernatural? Not once but several times? Stage Hypnosis?

That’s been explained to you many times but you're not interested because you've seen god.

What I'd like you to at least consider are the experiences of other people that have seen god but have radically different experiences and even different gods. How can you explain that?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Phat, posted 09-17-2020 4:57 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Phat, posted 09-17-2020 6:39 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14677
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 263 of 327 (882313)
09-17-2020 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Tangle
09-17-2020 5:42 PM


Re: A Couple Of Notes
Just because other people see "other gods" does not explain anything except fake gods (actual demons posing as gods). Just as Moses was trumped by the magicians who duplicated his signs and wonders to Pharaoh. But of course I will never convince you...you think its all a matter of cultural upbringing and not actual power and evidence.

The only way you people here might be convinced is if you yourselves actually experience it. I suspect that even then you would search for any other explanation except that you actually experienced it.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Tangle, posted 09-17-2020 5:42 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by jar, posted 09-17-2020 7:07 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 266 by ringo, posted 09-17-2020 8:32 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 267 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2020 10:31 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 270 by Tangle, posted 09-18-2020 2:54 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32970
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 264 of 327 (882314)
09-17-2020 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Phat
09-17-2020 6:39 PM


Think Phat, try it. You might like it!
Phat writes:

Just because other people see "other gods" does not explain anything except fake gods (actual demons posing as gods).

What are the tests anyone can perform to tell that what you experienced was not actually demons and a fake god!


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Phat, posted 09-17-2020 6:39 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 265 of 327 (882315)
09-17-2020 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Phat
09-17-2020 4:57 PM


Re: A Couple Of Notes
Phat writes:

So how do you explain that I have "seen" the supernatural? Not once but several times?


Do you read my posts at all? I have told you several times that I have had "experiences" too. The only difference is that I don't call them "supernatural". I call them "unexplained".

Neither you nor I has enough understanding of the natural to decide that something "can not" be explained. It's far more likely that WE can't explain it but somebody else can.

Phat writes:

Stage Hypnosis?


That's one possibility.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Phat, posted 09-17-2020 4:57 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 266 of 327 (882316)
09-17-2020 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Phat
09-17-2020 6:39 PM


Re: A Couple Of Notes
Phat writes:

The only way you people here might be convinced is if you yourselves actually experience it.


One more time: I HAVE experienced "it".

Phat writes:

I suspect that even then you would search for any other explanation except that you actually experienced it.


Well OF COURSE we're going to search for a sensible explanation before we swallow your nonsensical explanation.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Phat, posted 09-17-2020 6:39 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5380
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 267 of 327 (882317)
09-17-2020 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Phat
09-17-2020 6:39 PM


Re: A Couple Of Notes
I suspect that even then you would search for any other explanation except that you actually experienced it.

Of course I would. If I was convinced that I had an actual supernatural experience then I would be sure something was terribly wrong with my head and that I need to seek professional help.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Phat, posted 09-17-2020 6:39 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Fuckdamods 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 268 of 327 (882318)
09-18-2020 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by Son Goku
09-17-2020 3:56 PM


Re: Code
interesting. i was using code as a metaphor for however God creates the superstructures that manifest our reality.

it seems an impossibility that matter and life can just sprout out of nothing, no mechanism, no instruction. of course, humans create. so we extend the metaphor to our deity. and maybe it is that simple. we create because we are made in image of the creator.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Son Goku, posted 09-17-2020 3:56 PM Son Goku has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Phat, posted 09-18-2020 2:45 AM Fuckdamods has responded
 Message 278 by Son Goku, posted 09-18-2020 6:35 AM Fuckdamods has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14677
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 269 of 327 (882319)
09-18-2020 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by Fuckdamods
09-18-2020 12:47 AM


Re: Code
do atheists think that we are in essence our own creator? How else would a physicalist explain creativity and discovery?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Fuckdamods, posted 09-18-2020 12:47 AM Fuckdamods has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2020 2:55 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 272 by Tangle, posted 09-18-2020 2:57 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 273 by Fuckdamods, posted 09-18-2020 3:15 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 280 by ringo, posted 09-18-2020 12:08 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7959
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 270 of 327 (882320)
09-18-2020 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Phat
09-17-2020 6:39 PM


Re: A Couple Of Notes
Phat writes:

Just because other people see "other gods" does not explain anything except fake gods (actual demons posing as gods).

So what is it about your experience that convinces you that yours is the correct experience? How can you tell?

It's not just the gods of other religions that are convincing other people that they are right and you are wrong, the god of Christians is telling different stories to its different sects and, when it comes down to it, he's actually saying different things to each individual. Often very contradictory things.

He's telling wtfishisnametoday that he's going to heaven but you are not, for example. You never take him up on that but if you believe the voices, one of you is right and one of you is wrong (or, of course, you're both wrong).

But of course I will never convince you...you think its all a matter of cultural upbringing and not actual power and evidence.

I'm giving you the evidence that what you think is happening is not happening the way you think it is. But I do understand that delusions are rarely if ever cured by facts and evidence. When dowsers are tested and shown that they can't detect what they claim to be able to detect, it never convinces them, they always have an excuse. As you do - other people's voices are false gods or demons, but yours is real.

The only way you people here might be convinced is if you yourselves actually experience it. I suspect that even then you would search for any other explanation except that you actually experienced it.

I, and others, have told you many, many times that we have experienced similar things. I guess you 'know' that we haven't, not like yours, because you're special.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Phat, posted 09-17-2020 6:39 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020