Miracle Of The Sun & Other Musings

Read what I said again and explain why it was only SOME of the people in the crowd that saw what is claimed.Why it was that those that saw something saw different things and explain why no one else in the world saw the sun move even though there is only one sun and billions of potential observers.

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Miracle of the Sun - Wikipedia

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You didn’t bother to read it, did you?

Sorry Charley but that is simply not true. It is just part of the fantasy.But little kids do enjoy a fantasy. It was true when the Bible stories were written and true in 1917 and still true today.Edited by jar, : hit wrong key

Of course not!No TRUE BELIEVER would ever look at the actual evidence. Why would anyone so enthralled (AKA "enslaved") with belief ever wish to view the facts? To ever begin to consider what had actually happened?Don't most religious positions require you to ignore what had actually happened?

I read it. Im not scared to look at evidence. I am wary, however, of accepting beliefs which I most definitely don't agree with. If I accept jars beliefs that all (yes...all ) such sightings are made up and that God Himself must conform to logic, reason, and objective reality as verified by science, I feel as if I am strangling my own parameters of belief. I have no problem with a God who can impact human senses. I also know that such a God, though powerful enough to create the entire universe likely would not suspend the laws of physics simply for a group of believers seeking an apparition or sign. What I wont do, however, is rule out any possibility that He can if need be.The God whom I worship is not restrained by human logic.

The rules aren"t that hard to grasp. You could try reading them sometime.

You always ask the stupidly wrong questions.Is the world we all live in constrained by one set of physics? Is there ANY evidence of the rules of physics being different from one place to another and one moment to another?Specifically, in regard to the Fatima fantasy; why didn't the approximately 1.8 BILLION other people alive on that day in 1917 notice anything unusual?The Fatima fantasy is simply good marketing propaganda for one small segment of one Chapter of Club Christian.It's certainly not a matter of logic since anyone believing such nonsense has already totally abandoned reason, logic and reality.

I never said that I believed it. All that I said is that God can suspend the laws of physics if He so wanted. For you to limit your beliefs to exclude such a possibility is one reason why you have no idea how you can believe in logic, reason, and reality and know God. You steered around this fact by constructing your own belief. Newsflash: You can't find evidence for God. At best you will find plenty of evidence for human behavior.You need to ask yourself why you feel so strongly negative toward apologists. Logically, you should simply ignore them and go about your life instead of expressing so much animosity towards them. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

I personally saw a miracle, you f**king c**k s**kers! NOT ONLY THAT, but an entire theatre of witnesses saw it as well! So it is an undeniable MIRACLE!One night on a cruise to the south of Spain out of Southampton (lovely place; I would recommend it, both of them), the evening show was a magician. He had a sketch pad. On one page he sketched a bowling ball and ... MIRACLE!!!!!! ... a bowling ball suddenly dropped out of that sketch pad and down onto the stage. MIRACLE!! And not only that but ON CUE!!!!!!!.So you have some witnesses to some kind of refractive light show. And I have a auditotrium full of witnesses to a bowling ball falling out of a sketch book. Whom are you going to believe?To reiterate, I was not the only person to witness that event with my own eyes (rather that was witnessed by hundreds or far more), .

We all know about lying signs and wonders. There is One Holy Spirit (of creativity) and numerous imitators. One clue as to which "spirit" influences you at the moment can be surmised through your public cussing. If you were simply and calmly defending science rather than attacking believers, no such behavior would be evident coming from you. I'm not accusing you...i'm simply bringing up a point to think about. Ask yourself what it is about belief in general that you find so distasteful and threatening.As an edit, I might also point out that human magicians seek to trick people. There is no indication that a Deity would have any need to do so. Edited by Phat, : comment

Phat Phat Phat.I hold no animosity towards the Apologist. They are simply doing the same job as the Carny Barker or Medicine Man or Card Shark. Most are also very good at what they do. But I do feel a need to point out that neither you or anyone else has provided any evidence or reasoned argument showing why they should not be thought of just as any other Carny Barker or Medicine Man or Card Shark? Still asking the stupid questions.We can see evidence of human behavior that shows that none of the around 1.8 BILLION people on the Earth in 1917 saw what the few gathered and pre-selected to be gullible claim they saw. And not even most of those making such claims claim to have seen the same thing.We see similar behavior with witness statements. Fantasy based people see what they want to see.And Phat, change leaves evidence. If God moves the sun it would get moved for everyone and in addition it would move the Earth. You can't move the sun without affecting Earth orbit, something every single one of the approximately 1.8 BILLION people on Earth would have noticed. Now THAT would make the news.

So you are essentially defining what God can do? Oh I get it...God is limited by science. God can move the sun any way shape or form that he so chooses. The only thing God cannot force to move is jars will and perceived intelligence. Thats the real sticking point here. In summation, many things could explain that day. God may have only sought to impress upon the minds of the desperate believers the fact that He was present. The sun may not have actually moved, but was perceived to have done so. On the other hand, the God I worship could turn the sun into a giant pumpkin had He so wanted...and have been equally capable of suspending any physical consequences to the billions of humans here on earth.Too many of you limit God, even if God existed...you seek to define His limitations. Which is why He is unevidenced and unimpressive to you. Quite simply He is not real within your minds. You can factually state and defend that premise. What you cannot do is limit His capabilities nor remove Him from my mind.Now granted it appears logical that the sun did not actually dance. You are correct in that the whole world would have seen it. My point is that you cant limit God and what He can hypothetically do with any of the laws of science that you know.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

So you have no way to explain that "miracle" of a bowling ball falling out of a sketch pad. Instead, you resort of an ad hominem attack. Typical, so sadly typical.The "magic" of a stage magician works for the same reason that a natural phenomenon being observed by a scientifically ignorant layman does. You cannot explain how it happened, so you assume magic. There is no difference whatsoever.Here's a quote from one of my signatures here:

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Gentry's case depends upon his halos remaining a mystery. Once a naturalistic explanation is discovered, his claim of a supernatural origin is washed up. So he will not give aid or support to suggestions that might resolve the mystery. Science works toward an increase in knowledge; creationism depends upon a lack of it. Science promotes the open-ended search; creationism supports giving up and looking no further. It is clear which method Gentry advocates.
("Gentry's Tiny Mystery -- Unsupported by Geology" by J. Richard Wakefield, Creation/Evolution Issue XXII, Winter 1987-1988, pp 31-32)

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Another quote from Wakefield that I cannot find the source for says something like:

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When a scientist sees a mystery, he wants to solve it. When a creationist sees a mystery, he identifies it as "God" and so wants it to remain a mystery.

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That is why a supernatural-based "science" would actually kill science. And yet creationists of all stripes eventually end up resorting to the Omphalos Argument (see my page at No webpage found at provided URL: http://cre-ev.dwise1.net/omphalos.html). All the serious ones (including leading creationist master debaters Duane Gish and Henry Morris) end up having to explain away why all the evidence does indeed point to evolution and an old earth. Because the "unnamed" Creator created everything with a false history that would prove an old earth if you didn't already know that it was all just a trick designed to fool you.Who's your Sky Daddy? Loki! And yet that is exactly what creationists end up arguing for. Dude! Get with the program already!That is also known as "Last Thursdayism" which argues that the universe was created last Thursday with all the evidence for it having existed long before that, including our own obviously false personal memories, being complete fabrications that never ever happened.Of course, that is very hotly challenged by the Last Wednesdayists while the Last Tuesdayists know for a fact that both of the other parties are completely wrong.Which of those three churches do you belong to in your service of your trickster god? Unlike yourself, I have absolutely no problem with belief in general. Rather, the problem that I have is with ass wipes who want to force their own gross ignorance and arrogance on others, especially when they seek to destroy education and/or to dictate oppressive laws in the service of their own particular false interpretations of what their imaginary god wants.

Isn't that what every single creationist does? Instead of accepting the universe as the Creator created it, they dare to dictate to God what He could or could not do. How utterly arrogant!Science studies how the universe works. You want to claim that it somehow works entirely differently and arbitrarily. Good luck with that idiotic approach!Also, we have found that your geocentrism doesn't work. Within our frame of reference, the sun does not move! Why you insist on refusing to accept that very simple fact, I do not know nor could I ever understand. The sun does not move, but rather the earth does. And if the earth were to move in such a manner to make it appear that the sun stops or jitters around, then the g-forces placed on everybody on earth would be devastating reducing all of us to chunky salsa -- inertial dampeners only exist in Star Trek, or didn't you know that either?Please pull your head out of your nether orifice and learn something! Like heliocentrism, to start with!

To start with, I never claimed that the sun actually danced in the sky. The RCC were the ones who granted the reported incident as justifiably miraculous, and I suspect that the incident was a popular word-of-mouth event of that day and so the church sanctioned it to drum up business. I can readily accept that any given church or religious organization is imperfect and do not buy into Papal infallibility any more than I do my own or any other sanctioned leader in any church. I will say that John Paul II was darn close...he did more for the planet than any other Pope of the last 100 years!My point is that the God I worship is quite capable of suspending or even overriding natural law if there was a need to do so. I am not a creationist except in the initial Cosmological sense. I see no reason why God would seek to trick science. And I see no special significance to Mary, though some Catholics see her as very nearly a 4th member of the Trinity. I think that this is what sets me apart from Roman Catholicism, though I do believe that there are many Catholics within the RCC itself whom are saved.(In full Communion with God Himself. ) I do not believe that any member of any particular Club: Christian is automatically "woke" as it were. Some people follow science to the exclusion of belief, whereas others let their intuition override logic, reason, and perceived reality if they feel led to do so.I feel that we will know them by their fruits. If they are simply an armchair critic who claims to believe yet has no good works and transformation in their prayer life and personal integrity, (such as was Faith) then I think that they are no closer to God or to His plan than anyone else. If they are a good humanist socialist such as ringo, I feel that they are at least worthy of consideration by God if there comes a time for sheep to be separated from goats. Faith without works is dead. Works without Faith is simply humanistic altruism.In this, I believe that the messenger(Jesus Christ) is every bit as integral as the message(feeding, clothing, encouraging others) I believe that through Jesus Christ all things were created.