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Author Topic:   Miracle Of The Sun & Other Musings
Phat
Member
Posts: 14677
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 301 of 327 (882445)
09-23-2020 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Tangle
09-23-2020 6:34 AM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
Tangle writes:

That's not teaching, that's evangelizing.

Even if it was, so wht? You claim to have experienced much the same things I have---although being Catholic you likely did not. Irrelevant only in that we have no way to objectively investigate the arguments. You sure were quick to drop the ideas, however. I and 2 others heard voices from nowhere coming out in the air. We were in a controlled environment (my apartment). Again, you reject the beliefs because in your mind there is simply no way that they could happen.

As I told Son Goku, I feel that belief deserves a spot of its own alongside evidence.

For some reason, (perhaps because you dont accept any explanation) you throw all of the belief away, or chalk it up to human cultural need.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Tangle, posted 09-23-2020 6:34 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by jar, posted 09-23-2020 7:42 PM Phat has responded
 Message 303 by AZPaul3, posted 09-23-2020 8:55 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 304 by Tangle, posted 09-24-2020 3:00 AM Phat has responded
 Message 317 by ringo, posted 09-24-2020 12:33 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32970
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 302 of 327 (882446)
09-23-2020 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by Phat
09-23-2020 6:55 PM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
Phat writes:

As I told Son Goku, I feel that belief deserves a spot of its own alongside evidence.

Why?

Evidence can be independently verified; beliefs can not be independently verified.

There is simply no plausible reason to place beliefs alongside anything but other beliefs and all beliefs are equally valid and equally worthless.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Phat, posted 09-23-2020 6:55 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by Phat, posted 09-24-2020 9:14 AM jar has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5380
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 303 of 327 (882449)
09-23-2020 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by Phat
09-23-2020 6:55 PM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
belief deserves a spot of its own alongside evidence.

The spot alongside evidence is logic. There's no more room up there. No room at the inn, if you will.

You'll have to take your belief somewhere else.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Phat, posted 09-23-2020 6:55 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7959
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 304 of 327 (882453)
09-24-2020 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 301 by Phat
09-23-2020 6:55 PM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
Phat writes:

My response is that what they teach only reinforces doubt.

What do 'they' teach? I've never seen or heard of anyone going into prisons - or anywhere else for that matter - teaching 'doubt'. What is this doubt and who are these teachers?

I market certainty in Jesus Christ.
They charge me with "making God up". I'm starting to think that it is useless to attempt to disprove this notion.

If you weren't making it up you'd be easily able to prove it wouldn't you?

I and 2 others heard voices from nowhere coming out in the air. We were in a controlled environment (my apartment). Again, you reject the beliefs because in your mind there is simply no way that they could happen.

You are incredibly bad at telling others what they think and believe. Surely you've picked up on that fact now? Every time you say something like that it's wrong and it's been pointed out to you many times by many people. This should tell you that you're misunderstanding people all the time. You're filtering and re-interpreting our answers to fit a model in your head. It's weird to watch.

There are many explanations for your 'voices'. The least likely being god talking to you. You dismiss out of hand the experience of others and you totally ignore the evidence that many millions of people hear 'god' telling them totally different things - even in the same religion. Nobody has ever heard Jesus talk to them that had not previously known about Jesus.

That single experience of yours prevents and pollutes all your other thought processes.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Phat, posted 09-23-2020 6:55 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by Phat, posted 09-24-2020 9:11 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14677
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 305 of 327 (882455)
09-24-2020 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by Tangle
09-24-2020 3:00 AM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
If you weren't making it up you'd be easily able to prove it wouldn't you?
No. Thats not how it works. If it did, you and I would not be disagreeing.

I am reading a good book that you would actually like (I think). Well, you wouldnt like the topic but you would relate to the author.
Message 1

I think I will talk about it over in the Book Nook.

And just so you all know...Science Mike is *not* a Biblical Creationist from the CCoI. He has been through several stages in his life and is an inquisitive autodidact who is well respected in the community-at-large.

Edited by Phat, : added


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Tangle, posted 09-24-2020 3:00 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by Tangle, posted 09-24-2020 9:40 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14677
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 306 of 327 (882456)
09-24-2020 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by jar
09-23-2020 7:42 PM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
Evidence can be independently verified; beliefs can not be independently verified.
Why is it important to independently verify something? What if by design the message was not for everybody but only for those who had ears to hear and who were not evidence based sticks in the mud who never embraced Jesus due to the fact that they were too busy trying to figure Him out to have a relationship?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by jar, posted 09-23-2020 7:42 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by jar, posted 09-24-2020 9:24 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32970
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 307 of 327 (882457)
09-24-2020 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 306 by Phat
09-24-2020 9:14 AM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
Phat writes:

Why is it important to independently verify something?

Because lots of folk have beliefs and their beliefs are often mutually exclusive.

Phat writes:

What if by design the message was not for everybody but only for those who had ears to hear and who were not evidence based sticks in the mud who never embraced Jesus due to the fact that they were too busy trying to figure Him out to have a relationship?

What if by design the message was not for everybody but only for those who had ears to hear and who were not evidence based sticks in the mud who never embraced Allah due to the fact that they were too busy trying to figure Him out to have a relationship?

What if by design the message was not for everybody but only for those who had ears to hear and who were not evidence based sticks in the mud who never embraced Ganesh due to the fact that they were too busy trying to figure Him out to have a relationship?

What if by design the message was not for everybody but only for those who had ears to hear and who were not evidence based sticks in the mud who never embraced Coyote due to the fact that they were too busy trying to figure Him out to have a relationship?

Each of those statements is equally valid and equally worthless.

And more importantly, none of them are supported by any evidence that can be independently tested and evaluated.

Satan is strong in you.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Phat, posted 09-24-2020 9:14 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by Phat, posted 09-24-2020 9:30 AM jar has responded
 Message 309 by Phat, posted 09-24-2020 9:34 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14677
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 308 of 327 (882458)
09-24-2020 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 307 by jar
09-24-2020 9:24 AM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
What if by design the message was not for everybody but only for those who had ears to hear and who were not evidence based sticks in the mud who never embraced Allah due to the fact that they were too busy trying to figure Him out to have a relationship?

What if by design the message was not for everybody but only for those who had ears to hear and who were not evidence based sticks in the mud who never embraced Ganesh due to the fact that they were too busy trying to figure Him out to have a relationship?

What if by design the message was not for everybody but only for those who had ears to hear and who were not evidence based sticks in the mud who never embraced Coyote due to the fact that they were too busy trying to figure Him out to have a relationship?

The intellectual error that you make is placing your brains in the hands of critical thinking, evidence, and relativism. You always ask me how one would know whether accepting Jesus was possible and how one would know...yet you throw cultural relativism in the mix and thus taint the issue before you even start. There is only One God. Is it possible that *any* of us know Him? Is it possible that it is the One Spirit that people actually know and not a feeling made up in their heads? Is it possible that your worldview has been wrong for 50 years?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by jar, posted 09-24-2020 9:24 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by jar, posted 09-24-2020 10:22 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14677
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 309 of 327 (882459)
09-24-2020 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 307 by jar
09-24-2020 9:24 AM


And Just For Grins...
jar writes:

Satan is strong in you.


Which Satan?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by jar, posted 09-24-2020 9:24 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7959
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 310 of 327 (882460)
09-24-2020 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by Phat
09-24-2020 9:11 AM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
Phat writes:

No. Thats not how it works.

That's exactly how it works. If you're sane.

Science Mike is *not* a Biblical Creationist from the CCoI. He has been through several stages in his life and is an inquisitive autodidact who is well respected in the community-at-large.

Ffs. MtW is just another self-taught Christian know-it-all/know-nothing with a mind corrupted by religiously motivated thinking. And he's got no respect in my community-at-large, whatever that is. By their fruits …

Probably writing a book.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Phat, posted 09-24-2020 9:11 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by Phat, posted 09-24-2020 10:10 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14677
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 311 of 327 (882461)
09-24-2020 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by Tangle
09-24-2020 9:40 AM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
Im not talking about Mike The Wiz! You really need to pay attention before you criticize. I am talking about Mike McHargue

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by Tangle, posted 09-24-2020 9:40 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by Tangle, posted 09-24-2020 10:22 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7959
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 312 of 327 (882463)
09-24-2020 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 311 by Phat
09-24-2020 10:10 AM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
Pfnrrr...

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by Phat, posted 09-24-2020 10:10 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32970
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 313 of 327 (882464)
09-24-2020 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 308 by Phat
09-24-2020 9:30 AM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
Phat writes:

The intellectual error that you make is placing your brains in the hands of critical thinking, evidence, and relativism.

Really???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Did you actually post something that stupid?

Phat writes:

There is only One God.

Even the Bible stories say that is false Phat. Have you ever read the Bible? Who said "And God spake all these words, saying, I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Phat writes:

Is it possible that *any* of us know Him? Is it possible that it is the One Spirit that people actually know and not a feeling made up in their heads? Is it possible that your worldview has been wrong for 50 years?

What does the evidence show Phat?

What if by design the message was not for everybody but only for those who had ears to hear and who were not evidence based sticks in the mud who never embraced Allah due to the fact that they were too busy trying to figure Him out to have a relationship?

What if by design the message was not for everybody but only for those who had ears to hear and who were not evidence based sticks in the mud who never embraced Ganesh due to the fact that they were too busy trying to figure Him out to have a relationship?

What if by design the message was not for everybody but only for those who had ears to hear and who were not evidence based sticks in the mud who never embraced Coyote due to the fact that they were too busy trying to figure Him out to have a relationship?

As always, you never actually address the questions asked but instead simply repeat your dogma and market the god you create.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Phat, posted 09-24-2020 9:30 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by Phat, posted 09-24-2020 10:46 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14677
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 314 of 327 (882465)
09-24-2020 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 313 by jar
09-24-2020 10:22 AM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
jar writes:

Even the Bible stories say that is false Phat. Have you ever read the Bible? Who said "And God spake all these words, saying, I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

no other gods=no other objects of worship from which one derives power....such as Golden Calfs, various drugs, or porn, or intoxicants...even such innocuous objects which some may worship such as money or guns. Or pens! ....and some would argue that thopugh there is but One God there is many many demons. Of course to a relativist, if everyone has a"God"in their own head...we all are sinning against GOD. But thats another argument.

Now addressing your relativistic argument.

  • Allah is One monotheistic "God" who had no son.
  • Ganesh is part of the Hindu "pantheon" and is well known and revered within that culture. Ganesh_ChaturthiA relativist would assign this character the same value that is assigned to Jehovah, or elohim, or Jesus or His Father. For those of us who believe that the God(Father) and Son Jesus are in fact a Trinitarian Monotheistic concept, we would of course reject Loki, Ganesh, Coyote, Allah, and the Spaghetti Monster. You either take a stand or you don't. The very fact that you dont have any One Spirit or "God" in mind as being the true God shows that your intellect blinds you to Monotheistic truth. But let us assume that you are simply making an arguiment and challenging me to think about relativism.
    Remember when you got confirmed? What did you say in the ceremony?
    jars Belief Statement writes:

    Bishop Do you believe in God the Father?
    People I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
    Bishop Do you believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
    People I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
    He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
    He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
    He descended to the dead.
    On the third day he rose again.
    He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
    Bishop Do you believe in God the Holy Spirit?
    People I believe in the Holy Spirit,

    Now...you may argue that we could insert Ganesh into a similar statement as we could Coyote as we could Allah. You thus are arguing relativism as a valid human condition.

    But let me ask you this: Does God the Father, Jesus Christ, and The Holy Spirit have any more meaning to your inner spirit and belief than does Loki, Ganesh, or Coyote? If not, you never received anything more than grape juice and a cracker when you partook of Communion.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 313 by jar, posted 09-24-2020 10:22 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 315 by jar, posted 09-24-2020 11:26 AM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 318 by ringo, posted 09-24-2020 12:41 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32970
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.4


    Message 315 of 327 (882467)
    09-24-2020 11:26 AM
    Reply to: Message 314 by Phat
    09-24-2020 10:46 AM


    stop avoiding addressing what is posted Phat.
    Phat writes:

    jar writes:

    Even the Bible stories say that is false Phat. Have you ever read the Bible? Who said "And God spake all these words, saying, I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

    no other gods=no other objects of worship from which one derives power....such as Golden Calfs, various drugs, or porn, or intoxicants...even such innocuous objects which some may worship such as money or guns. Or pens! ....and some would argue that thopugh there is but One God there is many many demons. Of course to a relativist, if everyone has a"God"in their own head...we all are sinning against GOD. But thats another argument.

    There you go just making shit up instead of reading. Does it actually say "I am the Lord Thy God. ... Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

    And you also run off into your usual make shit up mode to imply I or others worship "stuff" like you did.

    We are not YOU Phat.

    Nor did anyone mention sin so no idea why you even bring that up except to once again try to palm the pea and avoid addressing what was actually written.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 314 by Phat, posted 09-24-2020 10:46 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
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