Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 75 (9011 total)
51 online now:
PaulK, Tangle (2 members, 49 visitors)
Newest Member: Burrawang
Upcoming Birthdays: DrJones*
Post Volume: Total: 881,588 Year: 13,336/23,288 Month: 266/795 Week: 62/33 Day: 1/21 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Failure of Progressivism
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6146
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 16 of 47 (882603)
09-30-2020 1:40 PM


Oikophobia
I was watching a video that pointed to a very interesting blog post that postulates that, in the absence of a unified external threat, that nations just about to fall begin with internal strife. More than ever does that appear to be the case as the United States ekes closer and closer to civil war.

quote:
Diverse interests are created that view each other as greater enemies than they do foreign threats. Since the common civilizational enemy has been successfully repulsed, it can no longer serve as an effective target for and outlet of people’s sense of superiority, and human psychology generally requires an adversary for the purpose of self-identification, and so a new adversary is crafted: other people in the same civilization. Since this condition of leisure and empowerment, as well as a perception of external threats as non-existential, are the results of a society’s success, success is, ironically, a prerequisite for a society’s self-hatred. What Freud has called the “narcissism of small differences” (in Civilization and Its Discontents)—the urge to compete against others even through minor distinctions like a virtuous action or the newest gadget—becomes one motivation through which a particular interest expresses its superiority over others.

This self-loathing is on display on EvC. As is summarized in the above quote, it is ironic in the sense that the ability to be overly-critical of one's own country and culture is usually an indication of its own successes.

As it relates to the current topic, if the Left's dystopian view of the US was so apparent then it would not be living a society that allows it to openly be this critical. The constant and insistent harangue that minorities are systematically oppressed is itself the strongest indication that its total bullshit.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 10-01-2020 12:43 PM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 32 by Percy, posted 10-06-2020 1:46 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18796
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 17 of 47 (882616)
10-01-2020 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Hyroglyphx
09-30-2020 1:40 PM


Re: Oikophobia
Hyroglyphx writes:

The constant and insistent harangue that minorities are systematically oppressed is itself the strongest indication that its total bullshit.


Crows are "free" to make a lot of noise and we either ignore them or shoot them.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-30-2020 1:40 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-02-2020 2:24 PM ringo has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6146
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 18 of 47 (882634)
10-02-2020 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by ringo
10-01-2020 12:43 PM


Re: Oikophobia
Crows are "free" to make a lot of noise and we either ignore them or shoot them.

Your typical attempt at one-liner profundity fails again... Debate honestly or don't bother replying.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 10-01-2020 12:43 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 10-03-2020 12:05 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18796
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 19 of 47 (882653)
10-03-2020 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Hyroglyphx
10-02-2020 2:24 PM


Re: Oikophobia
Hyroglyphx writes:

Your typical attempt at one-liner profundity fails again... Debate honestly or don't bother replying.


I'll say the same thing to you - reply to what I said.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-02-2020 2:24 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-03-2020 3:13 PM ringo has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6146
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 20 of 47 (882661)
10-03-2020 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ringo
10-03-2020 12:05 PM


Re: Oikophobia
I'll say the same thing to you - reply to what I said.

Rebut anything I said in this thread. So far your message is about squawking crows. There is a laundry list of things to unpack and for you to rebut. But you know that you can't so you resort to pithy phrases in an effort to sound profound. It failed again. Either debate honestly or don't bother responding.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 10-03-2020 12:05 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 10-03-2020 3:44 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
 Message 22 by ringo, posted 10-04-2020 3:12 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14654
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 47 (882662)
10-03-2020 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Hyroglyphx
10-03-2020 3:13 PM


Re: Oikophobia
I think what he is subtly trying to do is to consider Oikophobia in the context of Jim Crow. ringo is rather clever sometimes.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-03-2020 3:13 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18796
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 22 of 47 (882678)
10-04-2020 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Hyroglyphx
10-03-2020 3:13 PM


[qs=Hyroglyphx]Re: Oikophobia
Hroglyphx writes:

Rebut anything I said in this thread.


I did. I pointed out that the right to protest does not mean that everything is okay.

Hyroglyphx writes:

So far your message is about squawking crows.


It was a heavy-handed metaphor. Phat got it.

Hyroglyphx writes:

It failed again.


I'll be the judge of that.

Hyroglyphx writes:

Either debate honestly or don't bother responding.


I'll say the same thing to you - reply to what I said.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-03-2020 3:13 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-05-2020 4:02 PM ringo has responded

  
Tusko
Member
Posts: 608
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 23 of 47 (882686)
10-05-2020 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
08-18-2020 11:51 AM


Thanks for starting this topic. It is interesting. Your thinking seems to be quite US-centric. Someone like AOC or Bernie Sanders isn't very extreme in a European context. Do you think their views are extreme specifically in the US context, or for you are views like theirs extreme wherever they manifest?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-18-2020 11:51 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-05-2020 2:06 PM Tusko has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6146
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 24 of 47 (882691)
10-05-2020 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Tusko
10-05-2020 11:34 AM


Thanks for starting this topic. It is interesting. Your thinking seems to be quite US-centric. Someone like AOC or Bernie Sanders isn't very extreme in a European context. Do you think their views are extreme specifically in the US context, or for you are views like theirs extreme wherever they manifest?

Bernie at least has an identifiable plan. AOC is just a starry-eyed little girl that has no business in politics.

If you actually read the Green New Deal you'll see that the vision isn't even remotely feasible. Its pie-in-the-sky nonsense that sounds great on a theoretical basis but is ultimately self-defeating, expensive beyond measure, and incredibly inefficient.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Tusko, posted 10-05-2020 11:34 AM Tusko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Tusko, posted 10-05-2020 4:06 PM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 28 by ramoss, posted 10-05-2020 7:39 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6146
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 25 of 47 (882693)
10-05-2020 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by ringo
10-04-2020 3:12 PM


Re: [qs=Hyroglyphx]Re: Oikophobia
I did. I pointed out that the right to protest does not mean that everything is okay.

That's not a rebuttal. You're basically saying, "nuh-uh," and pretending that's a counter-argument. Have the integrity to go line item by line item and for once actually debate or don't bother saying anything at all.

It was a heavy-handed metaphor. Phat got it.

Its low hanging fruit for the troglodytes mindlessly nodding their heads on cue.

I'll say the same thing to you - reply to what I said.

Impressively bold gaslighting attempt, Ringo... Reply to what was stated and stop swinging at the air and accusing others of doing what you're doing. Anything less will result in you being ignored until you're capable of debating honestly.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by ringo, posted 10-04-2020 3:12 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by ringo, posted 10-06-2020 12:15 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
Tusko
Member
Posts: 608
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


(1)
Message 26 of 47 (882694)
10-05-2020 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Hyroglyphx
10-05-2020 2:06 PM


I'm going to react primarily to the video you supplied. This isn't something I'm very well versed in, so please point out any issues.

I smell a bit of disingenuousness in the headline argument, but I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable to say how significant it is. The main thrust in the opening minute or two is that the carbon emitted and the minerals extracted building the massive infrastructure is going to result in environmental costs greater than business as usual, and that those who propose it are at best misguided or ill-informed. This seems a little suspect to me, a little bit like a sleight of hand, and I want to see the working behind this assumption.

It doesn't seem take into account that the infrastructure, once built, will be making carbon reduction "gains" year after year after the one off outlay. Surely there is a carbon spent/carbon saved arithmetic here that would make the massive initial outlay something worth doing in environmental terms? If you could prove that the Green New Deal failed in these terms, and was indeed going to do more environmental damage than if we did nothing at all, then this would be the argument to make refute it, rather than saying some big numbers and sniping at the (assumed) foolishness of the deal's silly proponents, surely?

So they don't address the issue of the carbon spent/carbon saved by the New Deal, which is disappointing (if you've got something that addresses this point I'd be very interested to see it). However, their next step isn't to offer an alternative; rather they seem to be content to settle into a council of despair.

They seem to make the assumption that because the initial outlay is significant, there can be no solution to the problem, because it is in human nature (or specifically people with environmental concerns?) to reject the only actual solution, nuclear power.

Personally, I tend to think that while we're hanging around for cold fusion, a patchwork of renewables and nuclear is probably our best bet. The fact that only 3% of US power comes from solar and wind isn't itself a good argument not to increase the solar and wind mix in the US. In the UK it is approaching 50%, and although the geographical/meteorological realities of the two countries are very different, it would suggest that a concerted increase in the mix would get the US to a more sensible spread relatively quickly.

The video makes a reasonable point - we don't want humanity to take actions to mitigate that is worse than inaction. To be fair, I don't think anybody who is serious about the problem wants that. The question is, if we accept that climate change is happening, is already having significant effects, and is only going to get worse at current rates, what do we do instead to prevent massive social and economic upheavals in the coming decades as a result of the climate changes coming down the pipe?

As far as I see it, the GDP losses we risk from doing nothing - not guaranteed losses of course, just risks - are so massive that what we need is a workable solution, even for the more conservative projected risks.

As an aside, I find it interesting that their headline bullet point at the end is the cost to the poor. I wonder if these commentators take a similar hard line about the disproportionate damage to the poor from private healthcare, trickledown economics etc...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-05-2020 2:06 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-05-2020 5:52 PM Tusko has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6146
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 27 of 47 (882698)
10-05-2020 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Tusko
10-05-2020 4:06 PM


It doesn't seem take into account that the infrastructure, once built, will be making carbon reduction "gains" year after year after the one off outlay. Surely there is a carbon spent/carbon saved arithmetic here that would make the massive initial outlay something worth doing in environmental terms?

Its specific to the Green New Deal proposal which outlined an impossible timeline. You've probably heard many times that we have about a 9 year window to make substantial attempts to mitigate greenhouse gasses before we reach a point of no return. I won't argue the point. We absolutely have to do something different but they are absolutely right to point out that you are going to make more greenhouse gasses in an effort to reduce greenhouse gasses. Also, solar panels work great in Texas... How well do you think they'll work in Montreal? In Alaska? Oregon? Maine? Vermont? Or dare I say..... in London?

AOC honestly thinks she can retrofit every home in America with solar panels but can never explain how. This isn't at all a knock on solar panels or anything, in fact I have them! Its absolutely true that there is a finite amount of natural resources that make up components of battery cells. Even if you had a small army of installers and factories churning out thousands of solar panels a year, you would come nowhere close to overcoming the logistical nightmare she is proposing.

Mining for lithium itself presents ecological problems. I'm not saying we shouldn't mine for them, I'm saying inherently you take away one problem and add a new one in its place. We know that we cannot continue down the path of fossil fuels but the Green New Deal, while well-intentioned, is not feasible.

And even if it was if you or anyone can explain how to pay that price tag, I'm open to hearing it. Nowhere is there an actual source to explain how a project with a 93 trillion dollar price tag is supposed to be funded in practice, not principal.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Tusko, posted 10-05-2020 4:06 PM Tusko has not yet responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3185
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 28 of 47 (882703)
10-05-2020 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Hyroglyphx
10-05-2020 2:06 PM


Well, I don't consider John Stossel 'reading what it actually says'. It misrepresents things, and shows that propoganda is in full swing there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-05-2020 2:06 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-06-2020 12:31 AM ramoss has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6146
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 29 of 47 (882709)
10-06-2020 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by ramoss
10-05-2020 7:39 PM


Well, I don't consider John Stossel 'reading what it actually says'. It misrepresents things, and shows that propoganda is in full swing there.

Oh, hey, yeah, we should obviously be listening to a 12 year old bartender with no political or scientific experience for advice on climate change You're absolutely right, the propaganda is definitely in full swing

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by ramoss, posted 10-05-2020 7:39 PM ramoss has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by ramoss, posted 10-06-2020 2:37 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


(4)
Message 30 of 47 (882715)
10-06-2020 10:49 AM


Yeah, ya know, I was just looking around me and thinking, "You know what's failed? Progressivism." Pfft.

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-07-2020 6:50 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020