Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 72 (9010 total)
61 online now:
jar (1 member, 60 visitors)
Newest Member: Burrawang
Post Volume: Total: 881,717 Year: 13,465/23,288 Month: 395/795 Week: 96/95 Day: 31/19 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Failure of Progressivism
ringo
Member
Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 31 of 51 (882717)
10-06-2020 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Hyroglyphx
10-05-2020 4:02 PM


Re: [qs=Hyroglyphx]Re: Oikophobia
Hyroglyphx writes:

You're basically saying, "nuh-uh," and pretending that's a counter-argument.


What you said was obviously false and I gave an example that demonstrated that it was false.

You said, "As it relates to the current topic, if the Left's dystopian view of the US was so apparent then it would not be living a society that allows it to openly be this critical. The constant and insistent harangue that minorities are systematically oppressed is itself the strongest indication that its total bullshit." Message 16

I pointed out that the mere ability to protest does not indicate "free speech" if the protests are ignored (systematically for hundreds of years).

So go ahead and back up what you said.

Hyroglyphx writes:

Have the integrity to go line item by line item....


When you back up the first item, we can move on.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-05-2020 4:02 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-06-2020 2:00 PM ringo has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19879
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 32 of 51 (882719)
10-06-2020 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Hyroglyphx
09-30-2020 1:40 PM


Re: Oikophobia
Hyroglyphx writes:

As it relates to the current topic, if the Left's dystopian view of the US was so apparent then it would not be living in a society that allows it to openly be this critical. The constant and insistent harangue that minorities are systematically oppressed is itself the strongest indication that its total bullshit.

Translation: There's no discrimination against minorities, the left just likes to complain about it.

Conclusion: You're as racist as it gets.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-30-2020 1:40 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-06-2020 2:21 PM Percy has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 51 (882720)
10-06-2020 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by ringo
10-06-2020 12:15 PM


Re: [qs=Hyroglyphx]Re: Oikophobia
You said, "As it relates to the current topic, if the Left's dystopian view of the US was so apparent then it would not be living a society that allows it to openly be this critical. The constant and insistent harangue that minorities are systematically oppressed is itself the strongest indication that its total bullshit." I pointed out that the mere ability to protest does not indicate "free speech" if the protests are ignored (systematically for hundreds of years).

Ignored? Couldn't possibly be ignored if you tried. Every media outlet pumps it nonstop from every media platform possible from radio, to television to internet, every politician discusses it and its implications, the Royals are behind the movement, celebrity after celebrity supporting it, company after company making large donations, every single sports outlet (NHL, NFL, NBA, etc) openly and loudly supports it, freeways clogged, restaurant goers assaulted, motorists stopped, people forced to raise their fists in solidarity or risk being assaulted, etc. You would be hard pressed to find a single person on a planet earth that isn't at least marginally familiar with it.

Now that we can definitively say that not only is it not ignored but that it utterly dominates the social stream of conscience, perhaps you can address my points.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by ringo, posted 10-06-2020 12:15 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 10-06-2020 10:34 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 34 of 51 (882721)
10-06-2020 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Percy
10-06-2020 1:46 PM


Re: Oikophobia
Translation: There's no discrimination against minorities, the left just likes to complain about it.

No, its that the Left is pouring gasoline on an issue that was only smoldering before turning a contained brush fire in to a raging inferno as a political expedient and a political ploy at the expense of black America.

Conclusion: You're as racist as it gets.

If you can't see how counter-productive this is and how its a guaranteed prescription to hurt race relations then you are willfully blind.

quote:
The liberal elements of whites are those who have perfected the art of selling themselves to the Negro as a friend of the Negro. Getting sympathy of the Negro, getting the allegiance of the Negro, and getting the mind of the Negro. Then the Negro sides with the white liberal, and the white liberal use the Negro against the white conservative. So that anything that the Negro does is never for his own good, never for his own advancement, never for his own progress, he’s only a pawn in the hands of the white liberal. The worst enemy that the Negro have is this white man that runs around here drooling at the mouth professing to love Negros, and calling himself a liberal, and it is following these white liberals that has perpetuated problems that Negros have. If the Negro wasn’t taken, tricked, or deceived by the white liberal then Negros would get together and solve our own problems. I only cite these things to show you that in America the history of the white liberal has been nothing but a series of trickery designed to make Negros think that the white liberal was going to solve our problems. Our problems will never be solved by the white man. The only way that our problem will be solved is when the black man wakes up, clean himself up, stand on his own feet and stop begging the white man, and take immediate steps to do for ourselves the things that we have been waiting on the white man to do for us. -- Malcolm X

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Percy, posted 10-06-2020 1:46 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Percy, posted 10-10-2020 9:54 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3186
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 35 of 51 (882723)
10-06-2020 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Hyroglyphx
10-06-2020 12:31 AM


hey, yeah, we should obviously be listening to a 12 year old bartender with no political or scientific experience for advice on climate change You're absolutely right, the propaganda is definitely in full swing

I do not know of any 12 year old bartender, period, much less one that is giving advice on climate change.

That sounds like unreasoning right wing propoganda there.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-06-2020 12:31 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 36 of 51 (882732)
10-06-2020 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Hyroglyphx
10-06-2020 2:00 PM


Re: [qs=Hyroglyphx]Re: Oikophobia
Hyroglyphx writes:

Now that we can definitively say that not only is it not ignored....


In terms of ACTION, it is most definitely ignored. Black men are still being shot and police are walking away scot-free. It isn't the amount of noise that matters. It's the REACTION to the noise that matters. I pointed that out in my first post and you still have not addressed it.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-06-2020 2:00 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-07-2020 1:56 AM ringo has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 51 (882733)
10-07-2020 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by ringo
10-06-2020 10:34 PM


Re: [qs=Hyroglyphx]Re: Oikophobia
In terms of ACTION, it is most definitely ignored. Black men are still being shot and police are walking away scot-free. It isn't the amount of noise that matters. It's the REACTION to the noise that matters. I pointed that out in my first post and you still have not addressed it.

If any are walking away scot free then what does that tell you about the facts of individual cases? The annual median average of shot by the police is 1,000... that's out of 120,000,000 annual calls for service nationwide. Of those that are shot by police, 24% are black. Of the total amount of all police shootings, roughly 94% were deemed justified most often by grand juries after evidence was provided by the defense and the prosecution.

Now, of those, what evidence is there to assume that white officers are literally killing people just because they're black and has nothing to do with, oh I don't know, the fact that they are about to be killed?

Lets juxtapose that with the homicide rate of Chicago, which averages 500 murders annually. Of that, 75% of the victims and 71% of the perpetrators are black

30.9% of the total population of Chicago is black. So only 30% of the population in a specific demographic is both accounting for 3/4 of the entire rate of homicide AND is 3/4 of the victims of homicide. Two years of Chicago violence, alone, accounts for the entire US population of homicides by police officers in a single year. A single US city accounts for approximately two years worth of police shootings for the rest of the entire country. Hmmmm.....

Hmmmmm... but Black Lives Matter right??? Only when its convenient, don't delude yourself. Only when a bullshit narrative is to be dispensed. When an agenda needs to be wheeled out.

quote:
"The problem with the social activism we are now seeing—what John McWhorter has called “the new religion of anti-Racism”—is that it finds racism nearly everywhere, even where it manifestly does not exist. And this is incredibly damaging to the cause of achieving real equality in our society. It’s almost impossible to exaggerate the evil and injustice of slavery and its aftermath. But it is possible to exaggerate how much racism currently exists at an Ivy League university, or in Silicon Valley, or at the Oscars. And those exaggerations are toxic—and, perversely, they may produce more real racism. It seems to me that false claims of victimhood can diminish the social stature of any group, even a group that has a long history of real victimization.

The imprecision here—the bad-faith arguments, the double standards, the goal-post shifting, the idiotic opinion pieces in the New York Times, the defenestrations on social media, the general hysteria that the cult of wokeness has produced—I think this is all extremely harmful to civil society, and to effective liberal politics, and to the welfare of African Americans." -- Sam Harris


You're being led down a path of total bullshit that is absolutely destructive not only to society as a whole, but is creating incalculable damage to the black community. What is going to happen as a result of all this Wokeness and denuding of law and order is an authoritarian backlash and the creation of actual racists -- which is the last thing this, or any other country, should go through.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 10-06-2020 10:34 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 10-07-2020 12:25 PM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 42 by Taq, posted 10-08-2020 5:36 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 38 of 51 (882734)
10-07-2020 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Hyroglyphx
10-07-2020 1:56 AM


Hyroglyphx writes:

... what evidence is there to assume that white officers are literally killing people just because they're black....


I didn't suggest any such thing. I pointed out that the ability to protest does not make the problem go away.

Hyroglyphx writes:

You're being led down a path of total bullshit that is absolutely destructive not only to society as a whole, but is creating incalculable damage to the black community.


I haven't said anything about what's good for the black community - except to suggest that the teeny-tiny, itsy-bitsy minority of unjustified shootings are still a bad thing.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-07-2020 1:56 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-07-2020 2:41 PM ringo has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 39 of 51 (882737)
10-07-2020 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ringo
10-07-2020 12:25 PM


Typical obfuscation
I didn't suggest any such thing. I pointed out that the ability to protest does not make the problem go away. I haven't said anything about what's good for the black community - except to suggest that the teeny-tiny, itsy-bitsy minority of unjustified shootings are still a bad thing.

That's odd because for a minute there it looks as if you said nothing is being done about black men being murdered in the streets by white police officers that are NECESSARILY racist which therefore necessitates society's endless protests until it stops completely.

Its not hard to understand why and how it is statistically impossible to think we will ever reach a net worth of zero deadly force encounters. In 120,000,000 interactions a year, you are bound to have some people who will violently oppose arrest. Within that violent opposition, some of the people involved will inevitably be white police officers and some of the people involved will inevitably be black subjects. Some of those uses of force will inevitably be unjustified and some of them will be inevitably justified.

In my estimation the answer for the police is more funding, better training, stricter vetting process, and stricter standards of entry.

Police academies usually do a pretty good job of training cadets but the continuing education is often seriously lacking and all of it is perishable skills. Continuous training involving shoot/no shoot scenarios, de-escalation training, better empty hand training (BJJ, kickboxing, etc).

There also needs to be a continuous refresher course involving city ordinances, traffic laws, penal code, code of criminal procedure, constitutional law and Supreme Court cases involving law enforcement matters.

Police departments should additionally provide classes that uncover and erase any implicit biases that address actual or perceived biases from the community.

The police must additionally engage the community with an online citizen police academy and community outreach concerning what the police are looking for and for how to most appropriately to behave during a police encounter to ensure that all persons, officer and subject, are as safe as humanly possible.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : Edit to add


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 10-07-2020 12:25 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 10-08-2020 12:13 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 51 (882739)
10-07-2020 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Dr Adequate
10-06-2020 10:49 AM


Humor
Yeah, ya know, I was just looking around me and thinking, "You know what's failed? Progressivism." Pfft.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-06-2020 10:49 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 41 of 51 (882743)
10-08-2020 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Hyroglyphx
10-07-2020 2:41 PM


Re: Typical obfuscation
Hyroglyphx writes:

... for a minute there it looks as if you said nothing is being done about black men being murdered in the streets by white police officers that are NECESSARILY racist....


Nothing I wrote looks like that. The phrase "necessarily racist" is yours, not mine.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-07-2020 2:41 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8444
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 6.5


(2)
Message 42 of 51 (882747)
10-08-2020 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Hyroglyphx
10-07-2020 1:56 AM


Re: [qs=Hyroglyphx]Re: Oikophobia
Hyroglyphx writes:

Now, of those, what evidence is there to assume that white officers are literally killing people just because they're black and has nothing to do with, oh I don't know, the fact that they are about to be killed?

A cop pulls over a BMW and walks up to the driver's window. It rolls down and in the driver's seat is a middle aged pudgy white dude in a 3 piece suit. When the cop asks for identification the white dude reaches into has back pocket for his wallet. He isn't shot. Is that surprising?

Sadly, there are traffic stops where the driver or passenger isn't a middle aged, rich, pudgy white due, and is instead a black man. Sometimes, they get shot when reaching into their back pocket for ID. Even worse, we aren't surprised.

The major problem, in my estimation, is that cops have a heightened state of fear if the person they are dealing with is black. That's what sets up these terrible outcomes. Is a cop going to have his hand on his gun ready to draw at the drop of a hat if he is talking to a white pregnant woman in a mini-van? Probably not. What if it's a young black kid? He might be ready to draw and fire in the blink of an eye.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-07-2020 1:56 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by AZPaul3, posted 10-08-2020 6:59 PM Taq has responded
 Message 44 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-09-2020 1:03 PM Taq has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5380
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 43 of 51 (882751)
10-08-2020 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Taq
10-08-2020 5:36 PM


Why?
Is a cop going to have his hand on his gun ready to draw at the drop of a hat if he is talking to a white pregnant woman in a mini-van? Probably not. What if it's a young black kid? He might be ready to draw and fire in the blink of an eye.

Why? Why does the cop feel this way?

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Taq, posted 10-08-2020 5:36 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Taq, posted 10-15-2020 1:43 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 51 (882762)
10-09-2020 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Taq
10-08-2020 5:36 PM


Oversimplification
The major problem, in my estimation, is that cops have a heightened state of fear if the person they are dealing with is black. That's what sets up these terrible outcomes. Is a cop going to have his hand on his gun ready to draw at the drop of a hat if he is talking to a white pregnant woman in a mini-van? Probably not. What if it's a young black kid? He might be ready to draw and fire in the blink of an eye.

If your only two metrics or variables are skin color and a specific outcome, then naturally that kind of oversimplification is only going to yield simplified results versus one that factors in multiple layers of nuance. But, you aren't stupid, you know that already...

So is an unassuming, Morgan Freeman type of black man, driving a BMW in a 3-piece suit going to signal some kind of threat versus a white guy that looks like Chuck Liddell? Or how about a pregnant, black female that looks like Keri Washington driving a mini-van versus a white chick that has a tatted up neck and a confrontational attitude?

Demeanor, size, athleticism, attitude, shiftiness, mannerisms, etc are all context clues that every person picks up on, not just cops, when determining a threat assessment. Its 350 million of human evolution at play and just being "white" or just being "black" outside of the aforementioned variables doesn't tell the whole story.

And if that kind of reasoning still doesn't paint a more accurate portrayal than the one posed by you, we still have raw facts and datasets. And the fact remains that white people account for nearly 50% of all police shootings and the other 50% is every other race combined. Even when adjusting for per capita its still a disproportionate representation when considering their contribution to overall crime rates.

But those aren't endlessly pumped across the airwaves, so your perception of reality is horribly skewed. Your perception is not entirely your fault... The media deliberately manufactures this narrative to keep them alive. Rage bait and partisan politics is the only thing keeping print media and cable news alive... its a ploy out of desperation.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Taq, posted 10-08-2020 5:36 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Taq, posted 10-15-2020 1:49 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19879
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(6)
Message 45 of 51 (882772)
10-10-2020 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Hyroglyphx
10-06-2020 2:21 PM


Re: Oikophobia
Hyroglyphx writes:

No, its that the Left is pouring gasoline on an issue that was only smoldering before turning a contained brush fire in to a raging inferno as a political expedient and a political ploy at the expense of black America.

Translation: I blame the left for making rampant racial discrimination an issue when we could have continued ignoring it.

If you can't see how counter-productive this is and how its a guaranteed prescription to hurt race relations then you are willfully blind.

Translation: If you refuse to acknowledge a problem then it doesn't exist.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-06-2020 2:21 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020