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Author Topic:   The Failure of Progressivism
Taq
Member
Posts: 8482
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 46 of 61 (882787)
10-15-2020 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by AZPaul3
10-08-2020 6:59 PM


Re: Why?
AZPaul3 writes:

Why does the cop feel this way?

Cultural stereotypes, mainly.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by AZPaul3, posted 10-08-2020 6:59 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8482
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 47 of 61 (882788)
10-15-2020 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Hyroglyphx
10-09-2020 1:03 PM


Re: Oversimplification
Hyroglyphx writes:

If your only two metrics or variables are skin color and a specific outcome, then naturally that kind of oversimplification is only going to yield simplified results versus one that factors in multiple layers of nuance. But, you aren't stupid, you know that already...

I did state that it is a major problem, not the only one.

So is an unassuming, Morgan Freeman type of black man, driving a BMW in a 3-piece suit going to signal some kind of threat versus a white guy that looks like Chuck Liddell? Or how about a pregnant, black female that looks like Keri Washington driving a mini-van versus a white chick that has a tatted up neck and a confrontational attitude?

Demeanor, size, athleticism, attitude, shiftiness, mannerisms, etc are all context clues that every person picks up on, not just cops, when determining a threat assessment. Its 350 million of human evolution at play and just being "white" or just being "black" outside of the aforementioned variables doesn't tell the whole story.

I haven't heard of any unarmed tatted up white chicks being shot by police. Have you?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-09-2020 1:03 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15122
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 48 of 61 (882988)
10-30-2020 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by ringo
08-18-2020 12:25 PM


Addressing Some Opponents
ringo writes:

Learn what Marxism is.

The Jesus in the Bible most certainly WAS a liberal. The Jesus that you made up in your head is is a right-wing nut like you.

I figured that this topic was more appropriate for the direction that you and I are heading in this ongoing series of arguments. Putting Jesus aside for the moment....

I DID look into Marxism. I looked into Karl Marx himself, as well as several notable figures that had arisen since Marx died.

For now, lets see what Wikipedia says about each of them,. keeping in mind that this whole Left vs Right discussion will have propoganda on either side of the divide.

Wiki writes:

was a German philosopher, economist, historian, sociologist, political theorist, journalist and socialist revolutionary. Born in Trier, Germany, Marx studied law and philosophy at university. He married Jenny von Westphalen in 1843. Due to his political publications, Marx became stateless and lived in exile with his wife and children in London for decades, where he continued to develop his thought in collaboration with German thinker Friedrich Engels and publish his writings, researching in the reading room of the British Museum. His best-known titles are the 1848 pamphlet The Communist Manifesto and the three-volume Das Kapital (1867–1883). Marx's political and philosophical thought had enormous influence on subsequent intellectual, economic and political history. His name has been used as an adjective, a noun and a school of social theory.

Marx's critical theories about society, economics and politics, collectively understood as Marxism, hold that human societies develop through class conflict. In the capitalist mode of production, this manifests itself in the conflict between the ruling classes (known as the bourgeoisie) that control the means of production and the working classes (known as the proletariat) that enable these means by selling their labour power in return for wages.

OK, thats about what I figured that Marxism was. It does not take a genius to understand that whole philosophy. I will argue, as does Hyro, that that entire system is antithetical to the system that we have here in the United States. I further argue that Marx himself has been quoted as saying that he wants to dethrone "God" and to replace Capitalism. Of course, you well know that I would staunchly oppose both objectives, and if that makes me a "rightwing nut, so be it. I do approve of some liberally derived policies such as social security, medicare, and Obamacare. I am quite obviously opposed to throwing God away, as Marx indirectly suggested.
quote:
Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions.[242]

I also am firmly opposed to the idea that Socialism is on the path towards Communism. Do you think that it is?


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by ringo, posted 08-18-2020 12:25 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Tangle, posted 10-30-2020 2:37 PM Phat has responded
 Message 56 by ringo, posted 11-01-2020 2:21 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8090
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 49 of 61 (882990)
10-30-2020 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Phat
10-30-2020 2:23 PM


Re: Addressing Some Opponents
Phat, Marxism is not socialism is not liberalism. These terms are NOT synonymous.

Jesus was almost certainly a socialist but he also thought he was going to be an earthly king on earth so I'm not sure how that would have worked out.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 10-30-2020 2:23 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Phat, posted 10-30-2020 3:34 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15122
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 50 of 61 (882996)
10-30-2020 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Tangle
10-30-2020 2:37 PM


Re: Addressing Some Opponents
Lets leave Jesus out of this topic. We obviously disagree as toi His nature and whether or not He was bigger than the character in the book. (He Was and IS)

Lets discuss Saul Alinsky
Lets discuss why Britain is such a pacifist regarding the invasion of Radical Islam.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Tangle, posted 10-30-2020 2:37 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Tangle, posted 10-30-2020 4:03 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8090
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 51 of 61 (883001)
10-30-2020 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Phat
10-30-2020 3:34 PM


Re: Addressing Some Opponents
Phat writes:

whether or not He was bigger than the character in the book. (He Was and IS)

Given that the book is all there is, what's in there is all you get. Anything else you are making up.

But it's pretty bloody obvious that the guy is not a self-centred, every-man-for-himself, grab what you can, capitalist.

Lets discuss why Britain is such a pacifist regarding the invasion of Radical Islam.

'Scuse me?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Phat, posted 10-30-2020 3:34 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 10-31-2020 3:20 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15122
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 52 of 61 (883017)
10-31-2020 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Tangle
10-30-2020 4:03 PM


Re: Addressing Some Opponents
Given that the book is all there is, what's in there is all you get. Anything else you are making up.
I disagree. The book was a written response to human encounters with God...not an origin of human mythos[/b]. But then again, why would I expect anyone of you to agree with me?

I cant convince you that I am not making it up any more than I can convince you that they were not making it up. Perhaps God Himself will try to convince you some day, but at that point you will become fully responsible for you r decisions.

Which leads us into other argumens. jars Socratic teachers and critical thinkers convinced him that religion was relative to culture and that there is no essential absolute. You also fall for that deception. I dunno if we can blame Marx of Alinsky for that one, however. I think that where we disagree is in the area of critical thought processes, and if so, I wont blame you for being as you are.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Tangle, posted 10-30-2020 4:03 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 10-31-2020 4:26 PM Phat has responded
 Message 54 by Tangle, posted 10-31-2020 4:32 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33268
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


(3)
Message 53 of 61 (883018)
10-31-2020 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Phat
10-31-2020 3:20 PM


Re: Addressing Some Opponents
Phat writes:

jars Socratic teachers and critical thinkers convinced him that religion was relative to culture and that there is no essential absolute.

Phat you really gotta stop making stupid shit up.

The evidence, all of the evidence convinced me that religion was relative to culture and that there is no essential absolute.

Arian Christianity was different than Roman Christianity.
Christianity is different than Judaism.
Judaism is different that Islam.
Shall I go on yet again?
Taoism is different than Confucianism.
Buddhism is different than Hinduism.
Greek Theology is different than Roman Theology or Celtic Theology or Norse Theology.

And NO ONE has even provided any evidence of any essential absolute.

It is evidence, evidence available to everyone of any faith that convinced me and no one of any faith has ever presented evidence or reasoned argument to refute my position.

You really need to stop posting made up shit as though it were anything but your made up shit.

Edited by jar, : one - "e"

Edited by jar, : that ----> than


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 10-31-2020 3:20 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 11-01-2020 1:41 PM jar has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8090
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 54 of 61 (883019)
10-31-2020 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Phat
10-31-2020 3:20 PM


Re: Addressing Some Opponents
Phat writes:

I disagree.

So what? It doesn't change the absolute fact that everything you believe in comes from that book.

The book was a written response to human encounters with God...not an origin of human mythos.

Whatever...the book is still the book and it's all you have.

Which leads us into other argumens. jars Socratic teachers and critical thinkers convinced him that religion was relative to culture and that there is no essential absolute. You also fall for that deception. I dunno if we can blame Marx of Alinsky for that one, however. I think that where we disagree is in the area of critical thought processes, and if so, I wont blame you for being as you are.

You are totally screwed up. You don't know which way is up anymore.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 10-31-2020 3:20 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15122
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 55 of 61 (883030)
11-01-2020 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by jar
10-31-2020 4:26 PM


Re: Addressing Some Opponents
And NO ONE has even provided any evidence of any essential absolute.
So how do you know that its God? How do you know whether or not you even know God? And I realize you will reason your way out of this. You will say several things.
1) Phat, the fact is that I am a believer. I belong to an established club. (In other words, you said the prayers, believed the rituals, etc.) But tell me...when you pray with the people, or by yourself, how do you know that you are talking to God, whethere He is the Creator of all seen and unseen beyond all cultural refereence and mythos, and that you are able to converse with Him due to the humanity of Jesus? Or do you honestly say that you dont know? Because I do.

Now I am under no illusion that I fully know GOD> I believe that through Jesus Christ I have the right God. I suppose that in the strict definition of the word "know" that I have no external independent evidence, though as a believer I feel that the fruit in the lives of others is confirmation. You may well argue that this only proves groupthink and confirmation bias, but you have never actually seen the supernatural (or what you would call an unexplained event.) and if you have, you approached it logically, rationally, and critically, throwing it away if it remained unexplained. And yes, I am assuming a lot and saying things about you that I dont fully know. But thats how I roll...I wont simply let you framee a topic...I too have input.

Anyway, to sum it up--I feel that by claiming not to know, you are shortchanging yourself.

You will of course counter that by "making up" the God we market, we are lying to ourselves. But I can honestly say that I do not knowingly make up God. He made me.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 10-31-2020 4:26 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 11-01-2020 3:20 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18934
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 56 of 61 (883031)
11-01-2020 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Phat
10-30-2020 2:23 PM


Re: Addressing Some Opponents
Phat writes:

I DID look into Marxism.


Then you should know that I'm not a Marxist.

"Marx's critical theories about society, economics and politics, collectively understood as Marxism, hold that human societies develop through class conflict."

You're the one who's worried about class conflict, not me.

Phat writes:

I will argue, as does Hyro.... I further argue that Marx....


You can stop arguing about Marx. You can forget about Marx. Marx has nothing to do with me.

Phat writes:

I also am firmly opposed to the idea that Socialism is on the path towards Communism. Do you think that it is?


No.

No more than coffee is on the path towards heroin.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 10-30-2020 2:23 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Phat, posted 11-01-2020 3:56 PM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33268
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 57 of 61 (883034)
11-01-2020 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
11-01-2020 1:41 PM


Re: Addressing Some Opponents
Phat, reread that post. Where does ANYTHING in your post have to do with providing any evidence of any essential absolute?

Yet that is the quote from my post you claim to address.

And what about all that I posted and you ignored?

quote:
The evidence, all of the evidence convinced me that religion was relative to culture and that there is no essential absolute.

Arian Christianity was different than Roman Christianity.
Christianity is different than Judaism.
Judaism is different than Islam.
Shall I go on yet again?
Taoism is different than Confucianism.
Buddhism is different than Hinduism.
Greek Theology is different than Roman Theology or Celtic Theology or Norse Theology.

... {the one line you cherry picked} ...

It is evidence, evidence available to everyone of any faith that convinced me and no one of any faith has ever presented evidence or reasoned argument to refute my position.


I was replying to your direct assertion of why I believe what I believe and I pointed out that you were simply misrepresenting once again my position.

Phat writes:

jars Socratic teachers and critical thinkers convinced him that religion was relative to culture and that there is no essential absolute.

And now in your latest post you once again ignore the facts I present and post yet another example of your belief rather than support what you claim to be addressing or the bulk of what I posted.

Can you see a continuing pattern in your posts Phat?

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 11-01-2020 1:41 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Phat, posted 11-01-2020 3:47 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15122
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 58 of 61 (883036)
11-01-2020 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by jar
11-01-2020 3:20 PM


Re: Addressing Some Opponents
I was just arguing about why you are not a believer. Based on your own criteria, there is no way that you would ever believe without evidence.

What mystifies me is why you claim to be a believeer. About all that you believe in is the club rules and guidelines. You have no God in which to believe. Unless I can get you to admit that you believe without evidence.

no one of any faith has ever presented evidence or reasoned argument to refute my position.
It is not on us to prove anything to you. It is on you to claim why you are a believer when there is no evidence.

Thats what you try and do...to challenege anyone of any faith to refute your position. But your position...and you...stand alone.

I will admit that I believe without objective eevidence (all I have is internal) and have no problem with it. It works for me and I work for Him.(or try to do so)

Im just challenging what the whole definition of being a believer actually is.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 11-01-2020 3:20 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 11-01-2020 4:37 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15122
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 59 of 61 (883037)
11-01-2020 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by ringo
11-01-2020 2:21 PM


Re: Addressing Some Opponents
Two Documentaries which I watched made a fairly solid case for why Wessztern culture(Judeeo Christian Heritage) is being challenged, overturned, changed, and diluted through relativism and through teachings which disagree with the core values which arguably made us who we are today.
Values such as the family, the church, and the courts.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by ringo, posted 11-01-2020 2:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 11-02-2020 11:27 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33268
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 60 of 61 (883038)
11-01-2020 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Phat
11-01-2020 3:47 PM


Re: Addressing Some Opponents
Phat writes:

I was just arguing about why you are not a believer. Based on your own criteria, there is no way that you would ever believe without evidence.
What mystifies me is why you claim to be a believeer. About all that you believe in is the club rules and guidelines. You have no God in which to believe. Unless I can get you to admit that you believe without evidence.

Think Phat; really try it. You might like it.

Haven't I and a whole herd of folk repeatedly said that belief is ALWAYS without evidence.

But what you are replying to is in fact evidence and evidence must ALWAYS trump belief.

I was replying to your direct assertion of why I say what I say and I pointed out that you were simply misrepresenting once again my position.

Phat writes:

jars Socratic teachers and critical thinkers convinced him that religion was relative to culture and that there is no essential absolute.

What began this exchange was your silly assertion about why I hold the positions I express. And it is because there actually is evidence to support those positions; no belief is needed or necessary or relevant.

quote:
The evidence, all of the evidence convinced me that religion was relative to culture and that there is no essential absolute.

Arian Christianity was different than Roman Christianity.
Christianity is different than Judaism.
Judaism is different than Islam.
Shall I go on yet again?
Taoism is different than Confucianism.
Buddhism is different than Hinduism.
Greek Theology is different than Roman Theology or Celtic Theology or Norse Theology.

... {the one line you cherry picked} ...

It is evidence, evidence available to everyone of any faith that convinced me and no one of any faith has ever presented evidence or reasoned argument to refute my position.


Those are ALL facts Phat. Facts that support the conclusion that ALL religion is relative to culture and that there is no essential absolute.

Yes I am a believer. Yes there is NO evidence to support my beliefs. Yes, what I believe is unreasonable, unsupportable and illogical.

But you keep making statements as demonstrated in this exchange where you demonstrate that you cannot address anything that anyone posts. All you can do is spout dogma.

No one doubts that you believe what you believe but as in this exchange, when you are confronted with the evidence that does refute your stated position ether throw you position away or present evidence or reasoned arguments to support your position.

Edited by jar, : add the assertion from Phat that started this exchange.

Edited by jar, : fixed grammur


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Phat, posted 11-01-2020 3:47 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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