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Author Topic:   Broken Thinking Skills & Pointless Discussion
Phat
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Posts: 14734
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 16 of 65 (881613)
08-26-2020 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tangle
08-26-2020 3:09 AM


Re: Creation vs Evolution has been settled for over a century
You come here everyday and talk about what you've been researching, reading and talking about.
True. But what I mean is that I dont see or hear voices, believe that I experience Gods audible voice, or see demons on a daily basis. In fact, it is a skill that I believe is developed and only if one is living right and focusing on Spiritual things versus Ego, impressing other people, or fleecing a flock.

You guys make the mistake of assuming that if God speaks to one guy (through impressions, dreams, voice, or whatever) than by logic He should simply speak to everyone. This is where you error. Even among Christians, not more than (I would guess) 10-20% of them even have had such experiences. They are not loons, though. They are people who pray frequently and have a relationship with God, study scripture, and fast occasionally. They cannot be gluttons, arrogant, greedy for money, power, or prestige, living sinfully or thinking that all gods are relativistic concepts of human minds. That would be unbelief and also loony, I might add.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2020 3:09 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 08-26-2020 11:47 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 19 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-26-2020 1:58 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33015
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 17 of 65 (881614)
08-26-2020 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
08-26-2020 11:40 AM


Re: Creation vs Evolution has been settled for over a century
Phat writes:

They cannot be gluttons, arrogant, greedy for money, power, or prestige, living sinfully or thinking that all gods are relativistic concepts of human minds

What does the evidence relating to gods show Phat?

What evidence is that that even indicates that all gods are not relativistic concepts of human minds?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 08-26-2020 11:40 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
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Posts: 18820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 18 of 65 (881623)
08-26-2020 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Phat
08-26-2020 2:49 AM


Re: Creation vs Evolution has been settled for over a century
Phat writes:

Some would say I was mentally ill. I feel fine and don't even think about such things on a daily basis.


My father didn't suffer from mental illness - everybody around him did. Every few years he would feel so good that he would stop taking his medication and then it would get really bad.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 19 of 65 (881630)
08-26-2020 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
08-26-2020 11:40 AM


Re: Creation vs Evolution has been settled for over a century
You guys make the mistake of assuming that if God speaks to one guy (through impressions, dreams, voice, or whatever) than by logic He should simply speak to everyone. This is where you error.

Here is an excerpt from the preface of an unpublished book I wrote, entitled - THE ROAD TO DAMASCUS: Finding Life Amidst the Valley of the Shadow of Death

quote:
Growing up I was a fairly typical young man. I had parents and a sister that loved me. I was never without anything thing that sustains life or lacked amenities that might have enhanced it. I had a multitude of friends. I was athletic and healthy. I was musically inclined. For all intents and purposes, I had every conceivable reason to be successful in whatever desire I sought to endeavor. Despite all my worldly blessings and achievements, a life once seemingly clear, grew dismal.

“Always make a practice of provoking your own mind to think out what it accepts easily. Our position is not ours until we make it ours by suffering. The author who benefits you the most is not the one who told you something you didn’t know before, but the one who gives expression to the truth that has been dumbly struggling in you for utterance.” –Oswald Chambers

This quote, paraphrased from one of the great Christian apologists, has summed up the ‘expression to the truth that has been dumbly struggling in (me) for utterance.’ As well, I pray that I might be that author who gives to you the expression to the truth that has been been dumbly struggling in you for utterance. Where should I begin?

It seems that for as long as I can remember, I have toiled and agonized with the ‘void.’ The void: What is it? The void is that curious sense of lack; that nagging sense that something is missing. It is that place of emptiness inside the human heart. The void is that peculiar intuition that something is amiss or awry, but you aren’t sure why. The void is ever-present in all facets of human thought and emotion. I found this inequality to be true in my own experience, recognizing that it was separate from intellect, meaning, I could not think my way out of it. The void spurns the logical and any attempt to rationalize it ends with disparaging results. The void is a quandary and a vexation of sorts. The whole of life becomes so much more than just enigmatic. It is the missing piece of the puzzle. As more variables appeared I was confronted with a maze of obstacles. The twists and turns sent me roundabout until I came full circle, from where I began. I became the proverbial dog who chases his own tail. What I thought was reality became illusory. What I thought was truth was anything but and it chastened me.

From this position it had caused me to consider the philosophical questions that enter our minds from time to time. I have always found it tremendously interesting to ponder the deeper aspects of such notions and to observe how others have formulated their own conclusions. Gaining perspectives on others allowed me to assimilate my views from theirs, through comparison and contrast. It inevitably led me even further into the uncomfortable journey of introspection. Unfortunately, I had no idea what it was that I was looking for and certainly did not know how to find it. The only thing certain for me was that intangible pang in my heart. It was haunting and nothing seemed to offer any solace. I searched through vain and temporal avenues seeking restitution, but reprieve from it constantly alluded me. There were no lines of demarcation; where a boundary began and where it would end. And so, I sought the council of those I deemed to be wise, hoping that they had some insight on life that I was failing to grasp. To my dismay, they were just as lost as I was, and perhaps more so, because at least I could admit it to myself. These self-help gurus wore pride as a necklace and were blinded by their own convoluted sense of self-worth. At this point in time I had heard all the arguments to support this or that religion or to meditate on this or that philosophy but it all left a bad taste in my mouth. All that I gave ear to began sounding like a broken record. Today’s discourse was merely a carbon copy of yesterdays rant. The former was a slight gradation of the latter, with a subtle twist. It was the same mouthful of mouthwash just swishing to the other side of the cheek. The understanding that I had hoped to find in them was either fleeting or elusive, altogether. Meanwhile, I suffered in quiet desperation as one day melted seamlessly into the next. I am sure those closest to me sensed some level of despair in me, but I doubt they understood the breadth and depth of its extent. Life was grievous to me and what I thought was reality was now façade. Growing weary with cynicism, I eventually embraced agnosticism but not before weighing the juxtaposition of religiosity and philosophy - Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Atheism, Rationalism, and the like. Some of the ‘ism’ schism caught my eye but they were quickly put to death for a lack of, what, I do not know. I had been witnessed to by virtually every Christian denomination imaginable. They were either weak in their faith and thus, could not present an argument that was dismantled in moments, or I had put up walls in which to shut them out. And so, for years, I was at the crossroads of ambivalence, not knowing up from down.

Something new was in the air as Alexan spoke; something new on the horizon had dawned. Ironically enough, I did not feel some resplendent bliss that one might associate with the prospect of someone coming to terms with a fixed belief. Nay, but rather, it was dread. It was insidious and I could feel it in the pit of my gut. An uneasy feeling came over and the hairs on the back of my neck stood on end. The air was stagnate and there was a ringing in my ear. ‘Something’ knew it had been discovered as I becoming increasingly aware of its presence and it is aversion to having me hear what she had to say about God. In spite of this, it could not keep me away from Him. The bondages of oppression began to lift throughout the conversation.

A few weeks after that experience, I had opened myself increasingly to the possibility of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-benevolent presence. I wasn’t entirely sold out on the notion just yet, but I was allowing the possibility to flourish instead of stifling it as I had done for so many years. I began to listen to sermons on the radio and started to read the Bible with understanding. I was able to discern that which I could not recognize before. The Word became a catalyst to a consuming flame. I began to pray to God, that if He truly was there, that He would reveal Himself to me. And a few weeks after the walls were let down, it happened………...

I was on a routine patrol getting ready to secure a building on the base. For the life of me, I cannot recall what the sermon was about or what exactly it was that affected me so greatly, nonetheless, like a clarion call, it came to me. Have you ever looked at something for so long that it becomes obscured to you? Have you ever looked at something for so long that you come to realize that it never truly made any sense to you to begin with? Suddenly and inexplicably, it dawns on you what it is! I was sitting in the patrol unit with my jaw to the floor. Incredible emotion swept through me like a shock wave. Emotion washed over me as I was enveloped by grace. I literally fell out of the vehicle, prostrate, in a semi-fetal position. Tears began to well up in my eyes, so heavy and full of burden. And there on the ground, in an unguarded moment, I wept bitterly to my Lord. Amid the sobs were guttural groans, interrupted by a feeble attempt to express the ineffable. I begged for intercession and pleaded forgiveness. In that once-in-a-lifetime moment, I understood that which had vexed me for so long. And because I asked, I received. That was the day that I met the Holy Spirit of Almighty God! After being so sick and tired, of being so sick and tired, I was saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.

Lord if you are willing, you can make me clean.’ Jesus replied, ‘I am willing. Be clean.” –Matthew 8:2-3


Does it feel like that, Phat? Some would say that is pretty powerful testimony I gave about 18 years ago. The question is, was any of it real or did my brain find what I wanted it to? Maybe I can no longer hear God because of my apostate ways.... maybe I never heard him at all. Maybe that voice was my own. I have no way of knowing. No one reading these words can know for certain whether that experience was a delusion or a reality; including me and I'm the one who lived it.

At the end of the day, if the scriptures are accurate then it all boils down to faith. But do they say that so that you rely on your convictions or do they say that because they know they can't prove any of it?

I will tell you this concerning my conversion story. I had joined the Navy specifically and exclusively to become a Navy SEAL. Prior to this time it was an obsession of mine. In about July of 2000 I got my shot and went to BUD/S. Long story short, 1.5 months in I failed out on a pass/fail evolution. My worldview collapsed. I found myself in an existential crisis and my psyche was deeply fractured. I broke up with a long-time girlfriend and began dating a woman who I was absolutely madly in love with. Did I mention she had a boyfriend? Did I mention her boyfriend went to BUD/S with me and that we were pieces of shit for doing that to him? Did I mention that he found out on September 10, 2001? Why do you suppose I remember that date specifically?

So now my fractured psyche is more fucked up than ever... Needless to say to fill the void I engaged in a lot of sexual encounters until I hooked up with a chick, mentioned in the story, who in the long run was a total and complete disaster.

But can you see that I was being set up for something; anything to give my life meaning at that point in time?

So... again... I ask, was it real or did I want it to be real?

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 08-26-2020 11:40 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by dwise1, posted 08-26-2020 10:37 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4366
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


(3)
Message 20 of 65 (881655)
08-26-2020 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Hyroglyphx
08-26-2020 1:58 PM


Re: Creation vs Evolution has been settled for over a century
The main point is that we extremely rarely reason ourselves into believing, but rather there are many emotional, psychological, and social factors, along with other kinds of basic needs going into each individual's mental state that would lead to conversion. One size does not fit all.

After the conversion happens for whatever reason, there can be a stage in which the individuals then turn to reason in order to rationalize their decision to convert. Some such individuals may come up with all kinds of rational arguments for converting, but those will have very limited success because they ignore the real reason why people convert, that they offer to people who strongly need something with the very thing that they need. Whether you actually have it to offer or not.

Now, if you find what you so dearly need, then good for you. If that then leads you to do evil, then not so good. What do people like to say nowadays? It's complicated.

 
Now for the other slope: deconversion.

Reason can work well enough for rationalizing religious belief, but it also has a nasty habit to lead to thinking (almost as nasty as the habit of a Linux PC becoming an unauthorized router). Dan Barker's testimonial in his book, Godless shows that his own deconversion resulted from him asking questions that he was not supposed to ask.

Once you start to ask questions, all those other religious structures start to fall apart. Down to the most basic level, once you have stopped believing, then what?

There is a scene in an early X-Men movie where a parent learns that her son is a mutant: "Have you considered deciding to not be a mutant?" That is not something that you can decide. You either are one or you are not.

I have read so many deconversion stories. One abiding theme for so many is that they did not want to deconvert. Rather, reason had led them inexorably to the point of realizing that their faith did not work. They wanted so desperately for their faith to still work, but they realized that their faith could not work. It was so painful for most of them, but once you have seen the light, you cannot return to the darkness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-26-2020 1:58 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-26-2020 11:11 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 21 of 65 (881656)
08-26-2020 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by dwise1
08-26-2020 10:37 PM


Re: Creation vs Evolution has been settled for over a century
I have read so many deconversion stories. One abiding theme for so many is that they did not want to deconvert. Rather, reason had led them inexorably to the point of realizing that their faith did not work. They wanted so desperately for their faith to still work, but they realized that their faith could not work. It was so painful for most of them, but once you have seen the light, you cannot return to the darkness.

Not much else to say... Pretty much perfectly summarizes it.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by dwise1, posted 08-26-2020 10:37 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 08-29-2020 5:44 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14734
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 22 of 65 (881760)
08-29-2020 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Hyroglyphx
08-26-2020 11:11 PM


Re: Creation vs Evolution has been settled for over a century
How exactly is/was faith supposed to work?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-26-2020 11:11 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by dwise1, posted 09-09-2020 6:28 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7990
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(3)
Message 23 of 65 (882044)
09-09-2020 1:53 PM


Really, really bored now. COVID is killing me and I haven't got it yet.

This is another post from MiketheWiz on Evolution Fairy Tales, it's a mirror image of what we say and do here

wibble, an atheist writes:

The evidence from the fossil record is compelling. You never find modern mammals (such as dogs) in the Triassic, you never find flowering plants (such as bananas) in the Carboniferous and you never find ray finned fish (such as salmon, which include 99% of all existing fish species) in the Cambrian. Etc. etc. etc. You have no sensible answers for these facts that fly in the face of your faith.

MtW replies (sometimes in red ink, and bold type as they seem to do in these places)

MtW writes:

WARNING. These things have been addressed before and there are answers for them by creationists you have been given. The epithet, "sensible" is BS. This is rhetorical phlegm, there should be no more of these bare-assertions here about things you have been refuted on many times before.

The answers have been given and none of the forms you mention can be shown to have any intermediates from previous ancestors. DO NOT TROLL THE FORUMS with ad nasueam PRATTS that have been addressed time and time and time again, which clearly shown you had not even a basic grasp of logical reasoning.

As creationists our model does not depend on finding modern mammals such as dogs in the triassic but I did show you a chart of push-backs that have been found earlier and earlier. But we do not need to chase that red-herring because our model does not predict a dog would have lived in an ecological zone with dinosaurs, such as the triassic which for creationists would represent a preserval of a certain area that existed. Because our model means such rocks were trawls of certain areas, and we do not argue they are eons of time, then no, it is a red-herring fallacy to argue that we should expect such patterns in the rocks to be different. The pre-flood world was full of forms now extinct and it is impossible to predict the food-chain and ecological zones that would have existed because the post-flood world is like another planet. The answers are there, you are simply too stubborn to understand why they refute your objections.

And how many times do you need teaching these things? A teenager of poor to average IQ could understand it well by now. I propose you are simply A LIAR.

What it possible in these situations? They have invented a world where what he says makes sense, it's a total alternative reality that they can inhabit and no amount of fact can change it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Stile, posted 09-09-2020 3:04 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 36 by mike the wiz, posted 09-14-2020 5:36 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4007
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(2)
Message 24 of 65 (882048)
09-09-2020 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Tangle
09-09-2020 1:53 PM


Tangle writes:

What it possible in these situations? They have invented a world where what he says makes sense, it's a total alternative reality that they can inhabit and no amount of fact can change it.

I don't think much is possible.

1. If wibble continues - he'll likely just get banned.

2. MtW (and other's of the same) don't want to look at facts and reason, they want to believe what they believe and pretend it's all based on facts and reason.

3. You can try to continue for the sake of onlookers, or yourself, for entertainment purposes (one of the main reasons I continue visit this site, even - personal entertainment - I find the conversations interesting, for whatever reason, and not everyone finds all the same things interesting to the same levels - to each their own.)

4. You can just laugh - as most reasonable people will do to such comments, since folk like MtW are in such an extreme minority. And be thankful that such a turn-around has occurred while we're alive. Such folk did use to be a majority and run most of the world. But we've been out of the Dark Ages for a long time, now.

5. Ridicule can be fun, if you don't mind hurting their feelings. Just like how Flat Earthers and other various conspiracy nuts are treated - the psychological profile is an exact match.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Tangle, posted 09-09-2020 1:53 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4366
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 25 of 65 (882053)
09-09-2020 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
08-29-2020 5:44 AM


Re: Creation vs Evolution has been settled for over a century
How exactly is/was faith supposed to work?

I'll try to address that within the context here, which is that in my Message 20 I was assessing Hyroglyphx' Message 19 conversion story (ie, he presented his conversion story from 18 years prior and was asking questions about it). My assessment is that conversion is rarely rational, but rather is part of a personal response to whatever one is going through on a level of emotional or other needs (which are not rational).

Within that context, faith is also non-rational in that it's functioning in the absence of rational reasons or of objective information. But that would be oversimplifying somewhat. Faith is also rationalizing your beliefs, so it can take on the trappings of rationality. A further development of that would be theology which tries to create a rational basis for faith through the use of over very rigorous logic, yet roots that logic in unfounded and often irrational premises *.
As a result, faith can end up propping up beliefs that are in conflict with reality. That most often results in selective blindness or selective stupidity in order to not see nor understand the conflict, which in turn can escalate to self-delusion, and which can eventually result in deconversion.

What Hyroglyphx quoted from my Message 20 was from my discussion of how faith can start to unravel in the face of rational thought and questions, leading to deconversion even when that person does not want it to happen:

DWise1 writes:

I have read so many deconversion stories. One abiding theme for so many is that they did not want to deconvert. Rather, reason had led them inexorably to the point of realizing that their faith did not work. They wanted so desperately for their faith to still work, but they realized that their faith could not work. It was so painful for most of them, but once you have seen the light, you cannot return to the darkness.

My impression is that that is what you were asking about. So what is your exact question?

I would add here that deconversion need not be a complete rejection of religion, which does happen so often mainly because of one's own religious teachings (eg, "If we find even one error in the Bible, then we must through it on the trash heap and become atheists!" or ICR's John Morris' "If the earth is more than 10,000 years old, then Scripture has no meaning."). It can also manifest as changing to a new and different religious position while rejecting the false teachings of one's old religious position; ie, growing up into a more mature religious understanding.

 



FOOTNOTE *:

Immediately after three years of the original airing of the original Star Trek, I graduated from high school and started college, where one of my first classes was formal logic -- I had previously learned about the informal fallacies in my senior English class. Formal logic is not quite what most people think it is.

Formal logic is all about structure (from λεγω meaning to lay in order, to speak rationally). We worked mainly with syllogisms which are logical arguments in which two premises result in a conclusion. The premises are particular types of statements usually derived from the Square of Opposition. A syllogism can either be valid or invalid, which is determined strictly from the form of the syllogism. The conclusion from a syllogism can then be used as a premise of another syllogism, such that you can construct a network of syllogisms, a network whose ultimate validity depends on each and every component being valid. And even if that logic network is valid, that still does not mean that it is true.

All that logic can determine is whether an argument (eg, syllogistic network) is valid. Now, if you have a valid argument and you feed it true premises, then you will get a true conclusion. However, if you instead feed it false premises, then you have no idea what you are getting.

That is what most people do not understand: just because something is logical that does not mean that it is true.

And that is the ultimate problem for theology. No matter how rigorously valid theologians may make their intricate logic, if the premises are not true then the conclusions cannot be accepted as being true. Even worse, if the the premises are not proven to be true, then the conclusions cannot be considered to be proven to be true.

There is an actual practice, sophistry, which uses logic to deceive. Basically, if you can get your victim to accept your premises, then you can prove anything such as day being night and black being white. Many creationists and apologists (which Christian bookstores group together) attempt to use such sophistry to deceive us. The most recent practitioner here was Richard L. Wang, who tried his darndest to get us to accept his false premises before he would even begin to present his case.

One of the most famous modern examples of sophistic arguments was from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy in which something that should prove the existence of God actually disproves God:

quote:
Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that something so mind-bogglingly useful [as the Babel fish] could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.

The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing." "But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and, by your own arguments, you don't. QED." "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and vanishes in a puff of logic. "Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing [a British crosswalk].


 
BTW, George Boole (1815 – 1864) developed a symbolic logic called Boolean Algebra which is based on values of true or false and operators of AND, OR, and NOT. Going into the 1930's, Bell Labs used Boolean algebra to design the relay networks for automated telephone switching, from which it grew to be used in designing computer circuits. As a computer system technician (pre-PC) I was taught and used Boolean algebra to describe a combinatory network and then in CS/EE class how to use it to design a digital logic network. Very powerful stuff. The point is that those networks use the outputs of AND, OR, and NOT (AKA inverter and state indicators) gates as the inputs of the next gates in the network. The same kind of intricate and complex logic networks generated by theology, and by astrology, and by any other complex system that depends on logic.




This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 08-29-2020 5:44 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 09-09-2020 7:13 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14734
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 26 of 65 (882056)
09-09-2020 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by dwise1
09-09-2020 6:28 PM


Re: Creation vs Evolution has been settled for over a century
I enjoy reading your posts, by the way.

dwise1 writes:

One abiding theme for so many is that they did not want to deconvert. Rather, reason had led them inexorably to the point of realizing that their faith did not work. They wanted so desperately for their faith to still work, but they realized that their faith could not work. It was so painful for most of them, but once you have seen the light, you cannot return to the darkness.(...)My impression is that that is what you were asking about. So what is your exact question?

I guess I was asking Hyroglyphix to explain what no longer worked for him faithwise. Was it the trap of Biblical Literalism? I know that for me personally, some facts matter, some are unproven, and some are inconsequential.

I could care less if the earth is/was 5000 years old, 10,000 years old or 5 billion years old.
I dont care whether Adam, Eve, and the snake were literal or metaphorical. All I care to explore are the various philosophical lines of thought regarding the stories and myths.

On the other hand, I have chosen to care very much on the literalness of a Virgin Birth and a Character of a Man who was in the Beginning...Jesus Christ. I need that reality or my faith ceases to work. I have gone to great lengths to prove it to myself and to believe it, but all that I have is some subjective eexperiences of having a transformed mind one day and of seeing (hearing) what I labled as supernatural manifestations and what ringo labels as unexplained.

Hanging out with like-minded believers is comforting to my flesh at best. My spirit is restless.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by dwise1, posted 09-09-2020 6:28 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Tangle, posted 09-10-2020 3:48 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7990
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 27 of 65 (882066)
09-10-2020 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
09-09-2020 7:13 PM


Re: Creation vs Evolution has been settled for over a century
Phat writes:

I dont care whether Adam, Eve, and the snake were literal or metaphorical

You really should.

If Adam and Eve were not real then there was no Fall. If there was no Fall, Jesus was not required to be sacrificed to save us from it. The whole pack of cards collapses.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 09-09-2020 7:13 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 09-10-2020 5:47 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14734
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 28 of 65 (882070)
09-10-2020 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Tangle
09-10-2020 3:48 AM


Re: Creation vs Evolution has been settled for over a century
The whole pack of cards is only held together by Jesus Christ anyways.

Biblical Literal-ism does not have to be true but the Virgin Birth and character of Jesus Christ does.

When jar says that even if Jesus was simply a mythical character told in a tale around a campfire,the message still has value he fails to realize that if Jesus is not literal and Divine the whole pack of cards does collapse.

But fear not. I will never believe the Christian(anti-christian more likely) Mythologists anyway. Now before I go back to sleep, I would be wise to pray. I can feel myself getting a bit feisty, snippy, and carnal in my replies to you.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Tangle, posted 09-10-2020 3:48 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 09-10-2020 7:38 AM Phat has responded
 Message 32 by Tangle, posted 09-10-2020 5:39 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 33 by Stile, posted 09-11-2020 2:10 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33015
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 29 of 65 (882074)
09-10-2020 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
09-10-2020 5:47 AM


Re: Creation vs Evolution has been settled for over a century
Phat writes:

When jar says that even if Jesus was simply a mythical character told in a tale around a campfire,the message still has value he fails to realize that if Jesus is not literal and Divine the whole pack of cards does collapse.

Yet the important point to remember and understand is that Christianity is just a structure built from a pack of cards.

Christianity is but one path, one set of rules, one club, one vision, one set of possible choices. A set.

It is not unified or unique or in any way special. It is designed and created by humans for humans. The backs of the cards might be blue or red or yellow or green but the fronts are all pretty much the same.

You need to learn what literal means.

Look at the Bible. There are dozens of literal description of god. Each literally describes a character that is literally different than all the other descriptions of god in the Bible. The God of Genesis 1 is not the God of Genesis 2 or the God of Exodus.

This is also true of the descriptions of Jesus in the Bible. The literal descriptions literally describe different characters. The Jesus of the Synoptic Gospels is different than the Jesus of John.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 09-10-2020 5:47 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 09-10-2020 9:54 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14734
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 30 of 65 (882081)
09-10-2020 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
09-10-2020 7:38 AM


Is Christianity A Pointless Discussion?
jar writes:

Christianity is but one path, one set of rules, one club, one vision, one set of possible choices. A set.

It is not unified or unique or in any way special. It is designed and created by humans for humans.

Perhaps you have a point, but I would argue that what makes Christianity unique is the character of Jesus Christ. Perhaps in a Science Thread such as this one, we have a dead end.
jar writes:

You need to learn what literal means.

Look at the Bible. There are dozens of literal description of god. Each literally describes a character that is literally different than all the other descriptions of god in the Bible. The God of Genesis 1 is not the God of Genesis 2 or the God of Exodus.

This is also true of the descriptions of Jesus in the Bible. The literal descriptions literally describe different characters. The Jesus of the Synoptic Gospels is different than the Jesus of John.

The debates center around the possibility and probability of whether One God (described many different ways and interpreted to be of many varied characters) actually exists and what the implication is for humanity. Unless God is just an observer watching His kids grow up.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 09-10-2020 7:38 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 09-10-2020 10:43 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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