Finding God In The Waves

Are you sure? He's written a book you know.

Yes, I asked a question and I received an answer. If I need to know more, I shall ask other questions.

OK, the answer is no. But I wont let your word evidence frame this issue nor define this book (nor my worldview). You may then ask me why or you may already have drawn your conclusion based on your own methodology.

OK, the answer is no.

Thank-you; you have told me what I need to know. You see, it's quite easy when you simply answer the question rather than launching on a defence of your convictions.

Mike McHargue did a talk at Google after he wrote this book. Its a long video, but feel free to skip around and tell me what you think.

After listening, I found his Q&A session very entertaining and discovered that he is not an evangelical in disguise. Listen between the 40 minute and 50 minute mark.

Edited by Phat, : added the best timeframe to focus on. 40 minutes in.

Watch the video for ten minutes (between 40:00 and 50:00) and tell me what you think now. Im liking this guy more and more, though he probably would agree with jar more than he would with me.

BTW ringo, I tried to find a transcript but there is none. Im working on it.

Phat writes: BTW ringo, I tried to find a transcript but there is none. Im working on it.

Don't worry about a transcript. Try to find your own words.

Watch the video for ten minutes (between 40:00 and 50:00) and tell me what you think now. Im liking this guy more and more, though he probably would agree with jar more than he would with me.

He seems to be a good and likeable person, but, from what I saw in the ten minutes of the video, there is no evidence that the God of love who forms the foundation of his life has any objective existence or is anything more than the creation of his own mind. On his own account, he rejects the Bible as a valid historical account of events, and his moral principles appear to be much better than those taught in the Bible. There is nothing in what he says that could make me think that any religion is objectively true; at best, religions give us a reason to love our neighbours and provide a comfort in a harsh world.

I am submitting this only because you asked me to tell you what I think.

Astrophile writes: from what I saw in the ten minutes of the video, there is no evidence that the God of love who forms the foundation of his life has any objective existence or is anything more than the creation of his own mind.

This is what I know! There never will be objective evidence. It simply never happens. Otherwise everyone would be\lieve based on the evidence found. For some reason I feel that it was never meant to be something that everyone would get.

And evidence should not be a necessary standard. Science Mike says as much.

He believes, evidently due to personal experience later validated by more personal experience. He never suggests that his personal experience should even be used as any sort of evidence nor persuasion for anybody else.

I am submitting this only because you asked me to tell you what I think.

And I thank you for doing that. We can agree to disagree and still have some great conversations around this place.

Phat writes: And evidence should not be a necessary standard. Science Mike says as much.

Without evidence there can not be truth.

And evidence should not be a necessary standard. Science Mike says as much.

Guess what? You have a handful++ "Science Mikes" right here in these forums that have been telling you for more than a decade quite the opposite.

Why would you fall so hard for the former rather than the rest of us? We're not in it for the money. We're in it for the reality.

Your Science Mike is wrong, Phat. Reality is all there can ever be and scientifically accepted evidence is its only key.

ringo writes: Without evidence there can not be truth.

Matt 12:38-41 writes: 38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you." 39 He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

The evidence was given. The mistake many of you make is listening to doctrines of demones.(Mythicists who attempt to cast doubt on Jesus existence.

So, like, where is the evidence. I don't see it.

You have a story of how one local mythic legend used another local mythic legend to make the point that miracles don't exist.

If this is evidence of something I have no idea what it might be.

Remember we talk to the brain-dead around here so you have to spell out, in intricate detail, where/what/how this evidence is in your quote.

So far? Nada.

ringo writes: I read the theism --> atheism -- > theism angle in the blurb on Amazon. No surprises there. Every fundy claims to have been an atheist once. Maybe they just don't understand what it means.

I think we all understand what "being a Fundy" means. It means a Biblical Literalist, among other things.

ringo writes: YOUR god, in particular, is less likely than some other gods.

MY God is Jesus Christ. I think He is more likely than most any other "god".

Some reasons:

Changed Lives. It is well documented that many people changed or were changed because of Jesus influence in their lives. In addition, the behavior of the "bad" people was also well documented historically. What was it about early Christians,for instance, that was perceived as a threat, apart from refusing to bow to some egotistical Caesar?

Why were Christians used as human candles and burned? What possible inner reason would the secular authorities---who were perceived as Deities themselves by the masses,have for this strong hatred of Christ, Christianity, and professing believers?

Impact upon History. The fact that so many people throughout time have spent so much energy attempting to discredit and disprove Christian beliefs and dogma. Why the energy against? Do we see as much zeal aginst Buddhism? Judaism? Islam? Now I will grant that some Christians themselves oppose Islam, though by and large seem more favorable towards Judaism. Why is that?

Finally....lets get back to McHargues book itself. And Science Mike in particular.

AZPaul3 writes: Guess what? You have a handful++ "Science Mikes" right here in these forums that have been telling you for more than a decade quite the opposite. Why would you fall so hard for the former rather than the rest of us? We're not in it for the money. We're in it for the reality. Your Science Mike is wrong, Phat. Reality is all there can ever be and scientifically accepted evidence is its only key.

First of all, this "handful of Science Mikes" here at EvC all think differently.
jar is a believer.
ringo *used to be* a believer and now fancies himself a critical thinker.
As for you, I have no idea which pagan spirituality you dabbled with in Arizona, but you are clearly claiming to be an atheist...and a fundementalist atheist at that.
Tangle was raised catholic and mentions the bells and smells of his ritualistic youth. The only thing that you all have somewhat in common is your acceptence of *evidence* as your primary yardstick at measuring Logic, Reason, and Reality.

AZ writes: Your Science Mike is wrong, Phat.

And yet you have no clue what he says in the book. Your argument is really only centered on what I say about Science Mike and not on what Science Mike actually says. You are always so quick to prove your points and too quick to debunk mine.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
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“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

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How about finding God in this Wave? In 2019 an estimated 5.2 million children under 5 years old died .

Why Isn't God More Obvious?

It's a good question - one your quote doesn't seem to answer, either.

The attempt takes on an analogy, but I don't see how it works:

quote:

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For example, imagine that I said that it is obvious, but not forcefully so, that you will need your passport to fly internationally. Now, notice carefully that you have to learn this bit of information. It is certainly not like a forcefully obvious brick wall that you cannot avoid. But it would still perhaps be a case of a failure to grasp the obvious if you arrived at the airport with your bags packed but without your passport. It's this second sense (of non-forceful obviousness or avoidable clarity) that the case for God can be confidently approached.

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This is saying that learning about how to see God is like learning that you need a passport.

To this, I say: sure, sounds good. When does the learning about God start?

Learning that you need a passport:
-people can tell you
-you can look it up and find official documents describing it
-you can call up the airports and see what they say
-you can attempt to fly without one, and you will not be allowed to do so
-you can ask to see a friend's passport and they can show you a real, physical passport
-you can apply for one and get an official acceptance or rejection letter
-upon acceptance - you get a real, physical passport
-upon rejection - there are clear indications on why you are rejected... fix those issues, and you can then get your real, physical passport

Learning about God in order to find God:
-people can tell you
-you can look it up and find official documents describing it
-you can call up the churches and see what they say
-you can attempt to find God without learning, and you may or may not find God
-you can ask to see a friend's God... but they cannot show you anything real or physical, just more "telling you about it" (step 1.)
-you can apply to a church for official learning and get an official acceptance or rejection
-upon acceptance - you still don't get anything real or physical, just more "telling you about it" (step 1.)
-upon rejection - you may-or-may-not get indications on why you are rejected, if you do, they may not even be fixable issues... you will never, ever see anything real or physical, just more "telling you about it" (step 1.)

See the difference?

That's not "learning about God" - that's having people tell you about God.
That's just the first step - and people can tell us about anything. Like flat earths, and tin-foil conspiracies.
But real learning... will always include real validation.
But there's no real validation with finding God, is there? It's all just "telling you about it" and you either "personally accept it" or not.

That's not learning.
That's dogma.

That's why learning about passports to get a passport is nothing like learning about God to find God.

One is real learning... with real validation.
The other is just "people telling you about it" - over and over again.