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Author Topic:   Finding God In The Waves
ringo
Member
Posts: 18796
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 61 of 77 (882757)
10-09-2020 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Phat
10-08-2020 11:45 PM


Re: Critical Analysis of this books CONTENT
Phat writes:

The evidence was given.


That's what I keep telling you but you say, "evidence should not be a necessary standard."

Phat writes:

The mistake many of you make is listening to doctrines of demones....


The only demons are in your head.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

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 Message 56 by Phat, posted 10-08-2020 11:45 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18796
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 62 of 77 (882758)
10-09-2020 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Phat
10-09-2020 5:05 AM


Re: A Handful Of "Science Mikes"
Phat writes:

I think we all understand what "being a Fundy" means. It means a Biblical Literalist, among other things.


I don't think so. I'd say that I'm much more of a literalist than you are.

It's just bizarre that you take the talking snake literally but you don't take Jesus' words literally.

Phat writes:

It is well documented that many people changed or were changed because of Jesus influence in their lives.


No it isn't. The evidence shows that there are more believers than unbelievers in prison.

Phat writes:

What was it about early Christians,for instance, that was perceived as a threat, apart from refusing to bow to some egotistical Caesar?


What makes you think they were perceived as a threat?

Phat writes:

Why were Christians used as human candles and burned?


Why did Christians burn heretics?

Phat writes:

What possible inner reason would the secular authorities---who were perceived as Deities themselves by the masses,have for this strong hatred of Christ, Christianity, and professing believers?


Again, what makes you think that "strong hatred" existed?

Phat writes:

The fact that so many people throughout time have spent so much energy attempting to discredit and disprove Christian beliefs and dogma.


And Christians have spent so much energy trying to discredit and disprove the beliefs of other religions.

Phat writes:

Do we see as much zeal aginst Buddhism? Judaism? Islam?


Yes.

Phat writes:

Now I will grant that some Christians themselves oppose Islam, though by and large seem more favorable towards Judaism. Why is that?


Because that's what the apologists tell them to think.

Come on. We've been through all of this over and over and over again. There is nothing unique about Christianity.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 16572
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 63 of 77 (882760)
10-09-2020 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Phat
10-09-2020 5:05 AM


Re: A Handful Of "Science Mikes"
Let’s take a look at these arguments.

quote:
Changed Lives.

Are certainly not unique to Christianity. And some Christians have been pretty dreadful people. Consider Ivan the Terrible (“Terrible” was complimentary in those days - more like “Awesome”. But he was a really terrible person). Or Vlad Tepes - aka Vlad the Impaler.

quote:
What was it about early Christians,for instance, that was perceived as a threat, apart from refusing to bow to some egotistical Caesar?

To the extent they were perceived as a threat, their “atheism” (refusing to worship or sacrifice to any of the Roman Gods) possibly their Jewish connections, or trouble-making. It certainly wasn’t because they were seen as wonderfully good people.

quote:
Why were Christians used as human candles and burned?

If that story is true, it was for burning down Rome. It seems likely - but not certain - that Nero used Christians (an unpopular cult) as scapegoats. The punishment itself is even more uncertain.

quote:
Impact upon History. The fact that so many people throughout time have spent so much energy attempting to discredit and disprove Christian beliefs and dogma. Why the energy against? Do we see as much zeal aginst Buddhism? Judaism? Islam? Now I will grant that some Christians themselves oppose Islam, though by and large seem more favorable towards Judaism. Why is that?

Critiques of Christianity mainly come from places where Christianity is dominant, from people who grew up in a Christian-influenced environment and are reacting against it. That’s not evidence that Christianity is true. Why should people to who. Islam is just another religion with little impact on their lives really care about attacking it?indeed, what do you count as attacks? Exposing the falsehood proclaimed by Christian apologists? I hope not.

Im addition there are adherents of other religions who attack Christianity for the same reasons that Christians attack other religions. That is again no surprise and no reason to think that any of the religions is true.

And of course Christian attacks on Judaism only apply to Judaism after Jesus - or the Christians would be attacking their own beliefs. But they do exist and some are very nasty (see the “Blood Libel” for one - another great example of Christians not being good at all). Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism while Islam is an offshoot off Christianity - that’s the difference,

More importantly are attacks really evidence of truth? There have been a lot of attacks on Communism - should we believe in Marxism because of that?

Should we take the attacks on the Mormons - both written and those involving actual violence - as evidence that Mormonism is true?

Should Protestant attacks on Catholicism be seen as evidence that Catholicism really is the True Church?

I don’t think so. For any of them. And I doubt that you do either.

If people did a survey of religions and decided to attack Christianity solely because of its content that would maybe show something (but even then it might not be that Christianity is true). But in reality the social context is always an important consideration - almost always the most important consideration.

So no, this is a very bad argument.


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5367
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(3)
Message 64 of 77 (882765)
10-09-2020 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Phat
10-09-2020 5:05 AM


Re: A Handful Of "Science Mikes"
Evidence, Phat. You already produced the evidence. Now you need to recognize it.

Your Message 53:

quote:
And evidence should not be a necessary standard. Science Mike says as much

That is the evidence I have to rely on. I am not going to invest my time reading some mystic's cash-grab book. You let us know what it says and if you convey the meaning properly then I have something solid to discuss.

In this case, "evidence should not be a necessary standard" is wrong. It is wrong as a matter of logic, reality and fact. This has been shown in legions of studies and discoveries for centuries. In our modern age this kind of quack pronouncement should never be uttered let alone be given any legitimacy as logical human thought.

First of all, this "handful of Science Mikes" here at EvC all think differently.

And we've all said the same thing. Evidence is not just king it is the ONLY engine allowed on the road to reality.

It does not matter if he says it's a personal belief and he never suggests that his personal experience should persuade anybody else. Bullshit. He wrote the book to deliberately spread his poison in exchange for money.

So egregiously poisonous is this view that if your mystic really says evidence should not be a necessary standard then he is not worth any further consideration on ANYTHING he may espouse.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Phat, posted 10-09-2020 5:05 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5367
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 65 of 77 (882766)
10-09-2020 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Phat
10-09-2020 5:05 AM


Re: A Handful Of "Science Mikes"
As for you, I have no idea which pagan spirituality you dabbled with in Arizona, but you are clearly claiming to be an atheist...and a fundementalist atheist at that.

Atheist? Me? Heaven forbid I should be so calm.

I am anti-theist and the pagan spirituality I dabble in is called Science. You may have heard if it. It's that thing now loose in this world that has made your creed, and all such creeds, obsolete in humanity and, slowly, inevitably, will make your religions extinct.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Phat, posted 10-09-2020 5:05 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 10-10-2020 11:39 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14654
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 66 of 77 (882774)
10-10-2020 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by AZPaul3
10-09-2020 4:30 PM


Re: A Handful Of "Science Mikes"
All that your science is is just what the snake said: You shall be as gods.

You likely would even argue that today's humans are wiser than Jesus ever could have been since we now have Google and 2000 years of additional acquired wisdom. You just don't get it.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by AZPaul3, posted 10-09-2020 4:30 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 10-10-2020 11:50 AM Phat has responded
 Message 68 by AZPaul3, posted 10-10-2020 2:04 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32955
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 67 of 77 (882775)
10-10-2020 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
10-10-2020 11:39 AM


Re: A Handful Of "Science Mikes"
Phat writes:

All that your science is is just what the snake said: You shall be as gods.

LOL; did you REALY post that?

You keep showing that you really refuse to honestly read the Bible.

quote:
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

That's not the snake (and it's a serpent) talking Phat.

Phat writes:

You likely would even argue that today's humans are wiser than Jesus ever could have been since we now have Google and 2000 years of additional acquired wisdom. You just don't get it.

You just don't get it Phat.

There is a difference between wisdom and knowledge. There can be no doubt that even the Christian Cult of ********* probably has more knowledge than Jesus ever had. And when it comes to wisdom related to Jesus we can only go by what is written in the stories and no where in any of the stories does it show Jesus as having any unusual wisdom or greater wisdom than we find in many other examples such as the Buddha or Confucius or Lao Tzu.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 10-10-2020 11:39 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 10-10-2020 2:14 PM jar has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5367
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 68 of 77 (882778)
10-10-2020 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
10-10-2020 11:39 AM


Re: A Handful Of "Science Mikes"
You shall be as gods.

We are indeed. You think getting images, voices, music on a piece of wood in your hand is god-like wait till you see what we do with CRISPR-cas9.

You just don't get it.

Oh, I get your BS, Phat.

I reject it. Stomp it into the ground. Nail it to a piece of tree and watch it die.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 10-10-2020 11:39 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14654
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 69 of 77 (882779)
10-10-2020 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by jar
10-10-2020 11:50 AM


Re: A Handful Of "Science Mikes"
So you dont believe that Jesus lives today.

And if you did, you would realize that not only His wisdom was timeless, but that His knowledge is as up to date as the daily news.

Its ok. You guys say i dont get it and I say that *you* don't get it. Its why we frequent a debate forum and rarely agree.

I would research my replies and comment more, but I am starting a new business and will tell everyone about it once it is off the ground and running. I can't spend every moment of my l;ife attempting to defend a God who really needs no defense from me.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 10-10-2020 11:50 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by FLRW, posted 10-10-2020 2:58 PM Phat has responded
 Message 71 by jar, posted 10-10-2020 3:21 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
FLRW
Member
Posts: 54
Joined: 10-08-2007
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 70 of 77 (882780)
10-10-2020 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Phat
10-10-2020 2:14 PM


Re: A Handful Of "Science Mikes"
There has long ceased to be a generally accepted philosophical framework in terms of which Christianity can appropriately be expressed and defended. There is instead a plurality of philosophical perspectives and methods—analytic,

phenomenological, idealist, pragmatist, and existentialist. Thus modern Christianity, having inherited a body of doctrines developed in the framework of ancient worldviews that are now virtually defunct, lacks any philosophy of comparable status in

terms of which to rethink its beliefs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 10-10-2020 2:14 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 32955
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 71 of 77 (882781)
10-10-2020 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Phat
10-10-2020 2:14 PM


Re: A Handful Of "Science Mikes"
Phat writes:

So you dont believe that Jesus lives today.

You have never even explained what the hell that means.

Phat writes:

And if you did, you would realize that not only His wisdom was timeless, but that His knowledge is as up to date as the daily news.

Really. And what evidence or reasoned argument supports that?

And you never addressed the first issue in the message; who said "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:"?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 10-10-2020 2:14 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14654
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 72 of 77 (882795)
10-16-2020 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by FLRW
10-10-2020 2:58 PM


Basic Christian Philosophy
This is basically word salad. To clear your point up, explain precisely what these philosophies are that we are dealing with.

I can list a few.

  • Absolute Truth vs Relative Truth
  • The Foundation: God by Definition
  • Personal Responsibility: Gods Job vs Our Job

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 70 by FLRW, posted 10-10-2020 2:58 PM FLRW has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 73 by ringo, posted 10-16-2020 12:09 PM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 75 by PaulK, posted 10-16-2020 2:12 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
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    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18796
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.1


    (2)
    Message 73 of 77 (882796)
    10-16-2020 12:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
    10-16-2020 11:25 AM


    Re: Basic Christian Philosophy
    Phat writes:

    Absolute Truth vs Relative Truth


    If you believe in "Absolute Truth", you have to explain why different people embrace different "absolute" truths.

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 72 by Phat, posted 10-16-2020 11:25 AM Phat has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
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    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32955
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.4


    Message 74 of 77 (882797)
    10-16-2020 12:26 PM
    Reply to: Message 73 by ringo
    10-16-2020 12:09 PM


    Re: Basic Christian Philosophy
    Or present even one single example of an "Absolute Truth" as opposed to an absolute fact.

    There are no Absolute Truths found in the Bible or anywhere else.

    That is not relevant to Christian Philosophy but only to Apologists marketing carny spiels.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 73 by ringo, posted 10-16-2020 12:09 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 16572
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 75 of 77 (882798)
    10-16-2020 2:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
    10-16-2020 11:25 AM


    Re: Basic Christian Philosophy
    quote:
    Absolute Truth vs Relative Truth

    More like confusing the two. It’s fundamental to Presuppositionalism - which claims to be Christian philosophy (to the exclusion of any others). But that’s probably just another of the Relative Truths.
    Other Christian views are less obvious about it but it’s not rare to see arguments which are only good at establishing “true for me” rather than absolute truth (if that).

    quote:
    The Foundation: God by Definition

    More like human assumptions about God, at least as the foundation of thought - at best.

    quote:
    Personal Responsibility: Gods Job vs Our Job

    In your case that usually means denying that God should take personal responsibility for anything. Even if He is responsible for it. Which really doesn’t impress me. As I said, I don’t trust negative depictions of God - especially coming from people who claim to worship Him.


    This message is a reply to:
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