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Author Topic:   Trump and Trump supporters keep using the Y2K Fallacy, and it is driving me crazy
jar
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Posts: 33125
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 16 of 30 (883767)
01-10-2021 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by AZPaul3
01-10-2021 10:23 AM


The Bill WILL get paid. It is our choice whether it gets paid in currency or suffering.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by AZPaul3, posted 01-10-2021 10:23 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by AZPaul3, posted 01-10-2021 10:38 AM jar has not yet responded
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 01-10-2021 12:35 PM jar has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5536
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.1


(4)
Message 17 of 30 (883768)
01-10-2021 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
01-10-2021 10:32 AM


Then suffering it is. Money is too valuable to waste on human beings.

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 01-10-2021 10:32 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14881
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 18 of 30 (883770)
01-10-2021 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
01-10-2021 10:32 AM


jar writes:

The Bill WILL get paid. It is our choice whether it gets paid in currency or suffering.

It will be suffering. Im not gonna become as poor as ringo---or worse---simply to help society at large. Jesus may either inspire and encourage (or even threaten) me to change my mind...but I dont trust surrendering to the government. Republicans believe in helping some of the people all of the time (yet as few as possible) while Democrats believe idealistically in helping all of the people at the expense of individual interests...which is unrealistic.

Besides...why does this stupid bill need to get paid? What if we just tear it up?
The only Landlord that can evict us is reality itself.

Why is it in your interests to collectively pay the bill?

Sre you suggesting that if we all pitch in, the suffering will be less?

If so, make everyone pay the same as a percentage of their income.

I dont mind suffering if everyone suffers together...but I'll not be stuck with the bill while others escape the responsibility.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 01-10-2021 10:32 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 01-10-2021 2:07 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 20 by AZPaul3, posted 01-10-2021 2:46 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 21 by ringo, posted 01-11-2021 11:35 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33125
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 19 of 30 (883775)
01-10-2021 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
01-10-2021 12:35 PM


Yes Phat, unless we pay with cash you WILL become poor and suffer. And generations of Americans will suffer.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 01-10-2021 12:35 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5536
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.1


(2)
Message 20 of 30 (883776)
01-10-2021 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
01-10-2021 12:35 PM


... while Democrats believe idealistically in helping all of the people at the expense of individual interests...which is unrealistic.

Where did this come from?

What individual interests are you expecting to lose?

Besides...why does this stupid bill need to get paid? What if we just tear it up?
The only Landlord that can evict us is reality itself.

Sure. We can ignore the coming future of war, disease and famine humanity faces in the next few hundred years because of severe economic and social disruptions caused by long term shifting weather patterns and disappearing coastlines where most of us live on this planet. We're doing that anyway.

And as we have seen recently, the USofA is not immune to unrest let alone the factional wars about to be unleashed.

And we are too greedy, too concerned about our individual interests, to care.

We can go extinct in the next few thousand years along with the rest of mammalia.

Phat? Does any of this register with you? Like jar said present societies pay an increasingly steep price now or humanity, over the next few centuries, pays the cost in famine, disease and war to an unprecedented, species-threatening degree.

Our judgement day, Phat, has already passed. We failed. Now the horsemen are loose upon us.

Unfortunate for your dream of being saved by a cosmic ghost, what is happening is not from some ghost but is from us. And, as we have seen throughout all of human history and all of cosmic history there is no majik ghost out there to save us.

As I've said before, waiting for some hoped-for ghost to save us is the most egregiously evil and fuckin'ly stupid excuse ever. Even ahead of greed.

If so, make everyone pay the same as a percentage of their income.

Let's do that.

Problem. The $$billionaires won't allow it.

Got anything else?

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 01-10-2021 12:35 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18854
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 21 of 30 (883786)
01-11-2021 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
01-10-2021 12:35 PM


Phat writes:

Sre you suggesting that if we all pitch in, the suffering will be less?


Yes.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 01-10-2021 12:35 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Sarah Bellum
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Posts: 700
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 22 of 30 (883805)
01-12-2021 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by AZPaul3
01-10-2021 10:23 AM


In the short run one might be pessimistic. In early 1941 it looked like an unlikely alliance of Soviet Socialism, National Socialism and Japanese Imperialism might doom us to a millennium of woe.

But it didn't.

In the long run we got things like polio vaccines, unleaded gasoline, civil rights laws and the the replacement of the Chinese Communists with a bunch of industrialists looking to get rich (well-fed consumers are more likely to demand democracy than starving Red Guards).

One can get things done by lying to people, yes, but I think telling the truth is more effective at getting things done you really want done.

And by the way, I'm from Vulcan, but don't tell anyone, I'm waiting quietly for Zefram Cochrane.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by AZPaul3, posted 01-10-2021 10:23 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by AZPaul3, posted 01-12-2021 8:57 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5536
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 23 of 30 (883808)
01-12-2021 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Sarah Bellum
01-12-2021 7:22 PM


One can get things done by lying to people, yes, but I think telling the truth is more effective at getting things done you really want done.

We, the environmental anthropic warming crowd, are not lying to anyone. The nay-sayers and conspiracy nuts, the industrial elite and the whole capitalist edifice are lying to the world about how insignificant a few rain showers are and laugh when it snows outside sneering at "global warming".

Climate change has caused billions of dollars in flood damages

But it doesn't seem to matter. Not enough people care. We missed one big tipping point about 50 years ago and we're approaching a more desperate tipping point in the next 30 years. We will miss it. By a lot. Like we didn't even try. Which we didn't.

In early 1941 it looked like an unlikely alliance of Soviet Socialism, National Socialism and Japanese Imperialism might doom us to a millennium of woe.
But it didn't

At the cost of 150 million dead in a world we are evolved to inhabit.

Drastically change that environment, all over the globe, all at the same (relative) time, and layer on top of that a modern war conflict on the scale of WWII over multiple places on several continents.

Not even close. Your analogy is way weak.

Amsetri tre!

Dif-tor heh smusma.

Ehh ... Zephram's going to be a bit late getting here. Something about the capitol building.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Sarah Bellum, posted 01-12-2021 7:22 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Sarah Bellum, posted 01-16-2021 8:13 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 700
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 24 of 30 (883866)
01-16-2021 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by AZPaul3
01-12-2021 8:57 PM


Predictions in the 1980s that the Maldives would be underwater within 30 years, predictions in the 1980s that New York City's West Side Highway would be submerged within 30 years, predictions at the turn of the century that within a few years children in the UK won't know what snow is....

On the other hand, if they stuck to predictions like the spread of tropical diseases, increased frequency and intensity of hurricanes, lowered crop yields and such it would be much easier to get the needed reforms.

If scientists behave like Millerites, they'll be treated like Millerites.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by AZPaul3, posted 01-12-2021 8:57 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by AZPaul3, posted 01-16-2021 11:46 AM Sarah Bellum has responded
 Message 26 by NosyNed, posted 01-16-2021 11:56 AM Sarah Bellum has acknowledged this reply
 Message 27 by nwr, posted 01-16-2021 12:24 PM Sarah Bellum has acknowledged this reply
 Message 28 by glowby, posted 01-17-2021 1:09 PM Sarah Bellum has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5536
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 25 of 30 (883870)
01-16-2021 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Sarah Bellum
01-16-2021 8:13 AM


So you think scientists extrapolating from data is the same as some religious nutcase pulling prophecies out his ass? Foolish.

Someone, definitely not a climate scientist, overblows their essays with emotion and you treat it as if it was some official scientific pronouncement of the future. That is stupid, Sarah. Don't do that.

Even the prognostications of the IPCC, The Climate Group, NOAA, WMO are not precise enough for the bullshit forecasts you cited. But they all agree on this:

Global temperatures are rising and humans are the cause. This will inevitably lead to long term shifts in weather patterns and coastlines that will result in massive population dislocations most probably resulting in social disruptions and the famine, disease and war that usually accompany such changes long and short term. See Syria, Ethiopia/Eritrea/Somalia, Yemen. Disintegrated societies plagued by famine/disease then devastated by war all due to climate change.

On Blaming Climate Change for the Syrian Civil War - MERIP

You find solace in bashing the hyped prognostications of charlatans. We do talk and have been talking about tropical diseases, hurricanes, crop yields and such. We talk about the future of famine, disease and war. Then you come along centered on the scare tactics of charlatans and religious weenies and destroy that message with bullshit comparisons.

You, my dear, are the very problem that is dooming us all with inaction.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Sarah Bellum, posted 01-16-2021 8:13 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Sarah Bellum, posted 01-21-2021 6:19 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8954
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 26 of 30 (883871)
01-16-2021 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Sarah Bellum
01-16-2021 8:13 AM


1980s
I haven't been following all this for quite that long. I don't recall such predictions back then.
Can you supply references please?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Sarah Bellum, posted 01-16-2021 8:13 AM Sarah Bellum has acknowledged this reply

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5647
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 7.4


Message 27 of 30 (883872)
01-16-2021 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Sarah Bellum
01-16-2021 8:13 AM


Predictions in the 1980s that the Maldives would be underwater within 30 years,

I never heard that prediction.

predictions in the 1980s that New York City's West Side Highway would be submerged within 30 years,

I never heard that prediction, either.

predictions at the turn of the century that within a few years children in the UK won't know what snow is....

That's another prediction that I never heard.

Perhaps you can provide some citations.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Sarah Bellum, posted 01-16-2021 8:13 AM Sarah Bellum has acknowledged this reply

  
glowby
Member
Posts: 65
From: Fox River Grove, IL
Joined: 05-29-2010


Message 28 of 30 (883910)
01-17-2021 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Sarah Bellum
01-16-2021 8:13 AM


That "New York" underwater in 30 years prediction is from a made-for-TV disaster flick called "Earth 2100", disguised as a documentary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Sarah Bellum, posted 01-16-2021 8:13 AM Sarah Bellum has acknowledged this reply

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 700
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 29 of 30 (884055)
01-21-2021 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by AZPaul3
01-16-2021 11:46 AM


If you're saying people like Dr. James Hansen or Dr. David Viner (climate researcher at the University of East Anglia) or the Environment ministry of the Maldives are a bunch of charlatans, then you're really throwing a monkey wrench into the campaign to save the planet.

By the way, if you're so worried about people who are "definitely not climate scientists" doesn't that write a lot of sensible people, from former V.P. Al Gore to Greta Thunberg, onto the pay-no-mind list?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by AZPaul3, posted 01-16-2021 11:46 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by AZPaul3, posted 01-21-2021 7:17 PM Sarah Bellum has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5536
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 30 of 30 (884067)
01-21-2021 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Sarah Bellum
01-21-2021 6:19 PM


Dr. James Hansen or Dr. David Viner (climate researcher at the University of East Anglia) or the Environment ministry of the Maldives

Care to show how these support your claims in Message 24?

By the way, if you're so worried about people who are "definitely not climate scientists" doesn't that write a lot of sensible people, from former V.P. Al Gore to Greta Thunberg, onto the pay-no-mind list?

Why should it? They're popular and they spread the scientific understanding. Do you have a problem with that?

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Sarah Bellum, posted 01-21-2021 6:19 PM Sarah Bellum has not yet responded

  
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