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Author Topic:   COVID vaccine works - we're saved!
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 392 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 612 of 1110 (909747)
04-10-2023 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 611 by Percy
04-10-2023 8:24 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Percy:
Woman with tuberculosis faces jail and forced treatment after she refused isolation and visited a casino, says a headline at yahoo!news. The woman has refused treatment for tuberculosis and refused to self-isolate by riding busses and attending casinos.
Tuberculosis is a very dangerous disease, killing about a million worldwide annually. It is spread in the same way as covid, through the air by people breathing, speaking, coughing, etc. Covid averaged around two million deaths annually over the past three years, making it twice as dangerous as tuberculosis. It is pretty certain that the latest variants are far less lethal than the original and delta, which is good, but it make the death rate from the early versions of covid even additionally more lethal than tuberculosis.
This post deserves some comment. The following quote is from this website, California’s HIV Transmission Laws: Updated 2020 - Pride Legal :
SB 239 is Considered a Landmark Achievement by the LGBTQ Community
Things have now changed. On January 1, 2018, Senate Bill (SB) 239 came into law, scoring a huge win for HIV activists. Prior to 2018, HIV was the only disease you could be prosecuted for transmitting. California Governor Jerry Brown signed the law which repealed the old HIV laws regarding partner notification.
Friend of the LGBTQ community and California State Senator Scott Wiener (D), said that “HIV is a public health issue, not a criminal issue.” “These felonies, which treat HIV differently than all other serious communicable diseases, stigmatize people living with HIV and discourage people from getting tested and into treatment.”
Is a person that knowingly has HIV (or any other STD) that has sex with another person and doesn't inform that person that he/she has that disease doing anything wrong? Do I need to post a list of people that have died from HIV this way?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 611 by Percy, posted 04-10-2023 8:24 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 613 by Kleinman, posted 04-11-2023 8:28 AM Kleinman has not replied
 Message 614 by Percy, posted 04-11-2023 8:50 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 392 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 613 of 1110 (909772)
04-11-2023 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 612 by Kleinman
04-10-2023 8:55 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Percy, the point here is that people do things that are risky or dangerous to themselves or others. It might be a speeder on the road, the example of a promiscuous person passing a disease to an unknowing partner, or a woman with tuberculosis that engages in behavior that increases the risk of spreading the disease. How should you as an individual and the society as a whole respond to such behavior?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 612 by Kleinman, posted 04-10-2023 8:55 AM Kleinman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 615 by Percy, posted 04-11-2023 8:53 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 392 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 616 of 1110 (909776)
04-11-2023 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 615 by Percy
04-11-2023 8:53 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Percy, the point here is that people do things that are risky or dangerous to themselves or others. It might be a speeder on the road, the example of a promiscuous person passing a disease to an unknowing partner, or a woman with tuberculosis that engages in behavior that increases the risk of spreading the disease. How should you as an individual and the society as a whole respond to such behavior?
Percy:
Society has already made that decision. Intentionally spreading dangerous contagious disease is a crime. Some jurisdictions have specific laws about intentionally spreading disease, others handle it under "assault and battery" statutes.

Do you think that spreading HIV is a public health issue, not a crime?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 615 by Percy, posted 04-11-2023 8:53 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 617 by Tangle, posted 04-11-2023 10:50 AM Kleinman has replied
 Message 618 by Percy, posted 04-11-2023 11:11 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 392 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 619 of 1110 (909781)
04-11-2023 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 617 by Tangle
04-11-2023 10:50 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Do you think that spreading HIV is a public health issue, not a crime?
Tangle:
Forest fires are a public issue, deliberately staring one is arson.

HIV is a public Health issue, deliberately infecting someone is crime.

During COVID there were criminals that threatened to spit in a police officer's face if they attempted to arrest them for drug dealing - whilst shouting that they had COVID. Some of them did. During the HIV panic they threatened to bite. It was used as a weapon.

The law is all about intent, if you know you are infected with a dangerous disease and deliberately or recklessly set out to infect another you're guilty of a serious crime.

Not everyone thinks the way you do. Again, the following quote is from this website, California’s HIV Transmission Laws: Updated 2020 - Pride Legal :
SB 239 is Considered a Landmark Achievement by the LGBTQ Community
Things have now changed. On January 1, 2018, Senate Bill (SB) 239 came into law, scoring a huge win for HIV activists. Prior to 2018, HIV was the only disease you could be prosecuted for transmitting. California Governor Jerry Brown signed the law which repealed the old HIV laws regarding partner notification.
Friend of the LGBTQ community and California State Senator Scott Wiener (D), said that “HIV is a public health issue, not a criminal issue.” “These felonies, which treat HIV differently than all other serious communicable diseases, stigmatize people living with HIV and discourage people from getting tested and into treatment.”
Is a person that knowingly has HIV (or any other STD) that has sex with another person and doesn't inform that person that he/she has that disease doing anything wrong?
This is not a minor problem in society. The CDC at its website STI Prevalence, Incidence, and Cost Estimates reports that 20% of the US population has a sexually transmitted infection, many of them drug-resistant, and the WHO reports on its site WHO STIs that about 374 million new infections with curable STIs. That number is based on the assumption that there are no drug-resistant infections. That number also does not include incurable infections.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 617 by Tangle, posted 04-11-2023 10:50 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 621 by Percy, posted 04-11-2023 11:56 AM Kleinman has replied
 Message 631 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-11-2023 2:08 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 392 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 620 of 1110 (909782)
04-11-2023 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 618 by Percy
04-11-2023 11:11 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Percy:
Society has already made that decision. Intentionally spreading dangerous contagious disease is a crime. Some jurisdictions have specific laws about intentionally spreading disease, others handle it under "assault and battery" statutes.
Kleinman:
Do you think that spreading HIV is a public health issue, not a crime?
Percy:
What part of "intentionally" don't you understand?


Do you think that people with latent tuberculosis should be confined?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 618 by Percy, posted 04-11-2023 11:11 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 622 by Percy, posted 04-11-2023 11:59 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 392 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 623 of 1110 (909788)
04-11-2023 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 621 by Percy
04-11-2023 11:56 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Is a person that knowingly has HIV (or any other STD) that has sex with another person and doesn't inform that person that he/she has that disease doing anything wrong?
Percy:
Yes, obviously.

Did you perhaps intend to ask if it's a crime in California?

If you read this article from late last year, Do I have to tell a sexual partner that I am HIV-positive in California?, you'll learn several things.

First, in 2020 California Senate Bill 239 changed having unprotected sex and not disclosing HIV status from a felony to a misdemeanor, i.e., still a crime, but a lesser one.

Second, but if such sex results in actual infection then it *is* a felony punishable by jail and/or a fine.

Third, such behavior is still subject to civil lawsuits.

Fourth, the original law caused people to become more reluctant to get tested for HIV so as to remain unaware of their HIV status. For this reason the law had little effect on the spread of HIV but criminalized and stigmatized the HIV-positive community.

Fifth, most Republicans were against the change in law.

Do you know of anyone prosecuted for this crime?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 621 by Percy, posted 04-11-2023 11:56 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 625 by Tangle, posted 04-11-2023 12:53 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 642 by Percy, posted 04-11-2023 4:43 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 392 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 624 of 1110 (909789)
04-11-2023 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 622 by Percy
04-11-2023 11:59 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Do you think that people with latent tuberculosis should be confined?
Percy:
What part of "contagious" don't you understand?

So you think that anyone diagnosed with influenza should be confined?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 622 by Percy, posted 04-11-2023 11:59 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 657 by Percy, posted 04-12-2023 7:11 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 392 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 626 of 1110 (909794)
04-11-2023 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 625 by Tangle
04-11-2023 12:53 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Do you know of anyone prosecuted for this crime?
Tangle:
In my town

A man who said he was "riddled" with HIV and convicted of trying to infect 10 men has been jailed for life with a minimum term of 12 years.

Daryll Rowe jailed for infecting men with HIV - BBC News

How many people in your town are infected with HIV?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 625 by Tangle, posted 04-11-2023 12:53 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 392 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 628 of 1110 (909796)
04-11-2023 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 627 by Tangle
04-11-2023 1:10 PM


Tangle:
How many do you need?

The point is proven, people can be and are prosecuted for intentional infection.
So, HIV is no longer spreading in your town?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 627 by Tangle, posted 04-11-2023 1:10 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 629 by Tangle, posted 04-11-2023 1:53 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 392 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 630 of 1110 (909802)
04-11-2023 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 629 by Tangle
04-11-2023 1:53 PM


Tangle:
Would you like to explain the relevance of that, aside from the obvious attempt to change the subject?
Did locking up Daryll Rowe stop the spread of HIV in your town?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 629 by Tangle, posted 04-11-2023 1:53 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 639 by Tangle, posted 04-11-2023 4:20 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 392 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 632 of 1110 (909805)
04-11-2023 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 631 by Tanypteryx
04-11-2023 2:08 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Is a person that knowingly has HIV (or any other STD) that has sex with another person and doesn't inform that person that he/she has that disease doing anything wrong?
Tanypteryx:
What do you think?

Do you think that everyone with a contagious disease should be locked up?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 631 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-11-2023 2:08 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 633 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-11-2023 2:58 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 392 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 634 of 1110 (909807)
04-11-2023 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 633 by Tanypteryx
04-11-2023 2:58 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Do you think that everyone with a contagious disease should be locked up?
Tanypteryx:
What do you think?

How about someone that doesn't have a contagious disease but doesn't get the covid vaccine, should they be locked up?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 633 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-11-2023 2:58 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 635 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-11-2023 3:19 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 392 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 636 of 1110 (909809)
04-11-2023 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 635 by Tanypteryx
04-11-2023 3:19 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
How about someone that doesn't have a contagious disease but doesn't get the covid vaccine, should they be locked up?
Tanypteryx:
What do you think?

I think you should be locked up for the harm you have done to people with drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments because of your failure to explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 635 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-11-2023 3:19 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 637 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-11-2023 4:01 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 392 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 638 of 1110 (909815)
04-11-2023 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 637 by Tanypteryx
04-11-2023 4:01 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
I think you should be locked up for the harm you have done to people with drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments because of your failure to explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.
Tanypteryx:
So, I guess we can add cause and effect to the list of principles you fail to comprehend.

Use your understanding of cause and effect to explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. You won't.
Blame it on the people who refuse to get the covid vaccine. Do you even understand how vaccines work?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 637 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-11-2023 4:01 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 640 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-11-2023 4:29 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 392 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 641 of 1110 (909818)
04-11-2023 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 639 by Tangle
04-11-2023 4:20 PM


Kleinman:
Did locking up Daryll Rowe stop the spread of HIV in your town?
Tangle:
Does locking up a murderer stop murder?

Why do we have laws and punishments for breaking them Kleineman?

Locking up Daryll Rowe stopped the spread of HIV by him, at least outside the prison, unless he infects someone in the prison that later gets out and continues the spread of the disease. But it does not stop the spread of the disease by others with the disease. This brings us back to the question, should everyone with a contagious disease be locked up? There are over 10 million people with latent tuberculosis in the United States. Should they be locked up?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 639 by Tangle, posted 04-11-2023 4:20 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 648 by Tangle, posted 04-11-2023 5:26 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 658 by Percy, posted 04-12-2023 7:26 AM Kleinman has replied

  
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