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Author Topic:   COVID vaccine works - we're saved!
Porkncheese
Member
Posts: 170
From: Australia
Joined: 08-25-2017


Message 286 of 309 (890953)
01-12-2022 10:34 AM


You guys are some very sick sheep. Have fun with your boosters and masks


  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8331
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 287 of 309 (890954)
01-12-2022 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by Porkncheese
01-12-2022 10:32 AM


Porky Pies writes:

So its ok if people die from the vax as long as its saving some others...

"Unvaccinated Americans have died at 11 times the rate of those fully vaccinated since the delta variant became the dominant strain, indicate surveillance data gathered over the summer by the US Centers for Disease Control.

Vaccinated people were 10 times less likely to be admitted to hospital and five times less likely to be infected than unvaccinated people, found one study that tracked adults across 13 states and cities."

Covid-19: Unvaccinated face 11 times risk of death from delta variant, CDC data show

(BMJ = British Medical Journal)


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Porkncheese, posted 01-12-2022 10:32 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
Porkncheese
Member
Posts: 170
From: Australia
Joined: 08-25-2017


Message 288 of 309 (890955)
01-12-2022 10:58 AM


Murdering people in the name of covid
New normal...
It's OK to kill a 20 year old in order to give a dying 85 year old a few more months alive...
This is by far the sickest forum I'm on...

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Tangle, posted 01-12-2022 11:28 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded
 Message 292 by ringo, posted 01-13-2022 11:28 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8331
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.9


(4)
Message 289 of 309 (890957)
01-12-2022 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Porkncheese
01-12-2022 10:58 AM


Re: Murdering people in the name of covid
Porky Pies writes:

This is by far the sickest forum I'm on...

...and that's a lie too isn't it?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Porkncheese, posted 01-12-2022 10:58 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19388
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 6.1


(1)
Message 290 of 309 (890999)
01-13-2022 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by Porkncheese
01-12-2022 9:40 AM


Porkncheese writes:

Hahaha look who is talking about fallacies... The guy who used ad hominem on his very first post to me... LoL...


Pointing out that you are wrong (and why you are wrong) is not an ad hominem.

Pointing out that your ideas are stupid is not an ad hominem.

Claiming that you are wrong because you are stupid would be an ad hominem.


"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Porkncheese, posted 01-12-2022 9:40 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20507
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 8.4


(1)
Message 291 of 309 (891001)
01-13-2022 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Porkncheese
01-10-2022 4:01 PM


Re: Me COVID and Vax
Hi Porkncheese,

I'm still catching up in this thread, but after my post yesterday I noticed a couple of your more recent posts and thought you might be headed for suspension. I don't yet know what happened, but whatever it was it must have been pretty extreme to get suspended for a whole week.

What I can say is that moderators try to keep discussion focused on the topic and on reality. Severe topic drift (which comes in a variety of forms) and determined misrepresentations (which also comes in a variety of forms) can cause you to run afoul of moderators. Moderators long ago ceased trying to provide members with a list of do's and don'ts. Situations are too nuanced for that, it just isn't possible. But it's obvious when someone's sincerely trying to discuss constructively and when they're not, and it's usually people making a determined effort to blow up discussion that get suspended.

I would like to address a few of the things you say. This particular post from you strengthens my suspicions that you're less interested in what's true than in stirring the pot.

Porkncheese writes:

Well its your choice and everyone should have that choice but did the vax work as they said it would...

The information about how well the vaccines work is freely available from a very large number of sources, so the fact that you're asking this tells us that you're likely dealing in misinformation.

The article in the OP says it was 90% at preventing infection... Yet you got infected even after 3 doses...

There should be nothing about the difference between 90% and 100% that needs to be explained. Also, omicron is far more transmissible than the original version of the virus, which is what the 90% figure applies to.

The reason my symptoms were mild is because I am vaxed

Im hearing this kind of argument a lot but it is a fallacy because you cannot prove such. We don't know if your symptoms would of been better or worse without the jab.

You are correct. It is not possible for Theodoric to know that his symptoms were mild because he was vaxed. The 90% effective figure is statistical, which tells us that if one becomes infected then it is likely to be asymptomatic or cause mild symptoms. Hospitalization for the vaxed is about ten times less likely than for the unvaxed.

Its like me saying, I'm unvaxed and had covid. It was like a mild cold that would of been worse if I had the jab.

This is a good example of how Theodoric is incorrect, but you've got the statistics backward. As described above, statistically you're much better off if you're vaxed.

It's a shift of the goal posts. Their original claim was that these injections would provide herd immunity, end the pandemic and bring life back to normal...

The claim was that we'd reach herd immunity if we could get at least 80% of the population vaxed. Because much less than 80% of the population was accepting of vaccination, we never reached herd immunity.

I'm talking about the states, of course. The situation in Australia is different because you started with an isolation/quarantine/lockdown/testing/tracking approach and didn't embrace vaccines until very late in the pandemic, and then you ran into same problem as the US in reaching herd immunity, namely vaccine resistance.

That didn't happen so they fell back and said it lowers symptoms

They always said that this is what would be the case if we didn't achieve herd immunity. As explained in my previous post, there's really no such thing as immunity. When exposed to the virus, both the vaxed and the unvaxed become infected. The difference is that the vaxed's immune systems are already primed to deal with the virus and can mount an immune response right away. The unvaxed's immune systems will take at least a week before the first stages of an immune response can be detected, and during that time the virus has free reign to reproduce and spread throughout the body.

Either way i wish the government would just leave us alone. Stop forcing by using coercion, blackmail, threats, bribery, ransom and such, these are all criminal offences. And stop discriminating against us. Leave us in peace cos we've done nothing wrong

It depends upon how you define your responsibilities to your fellow man. Most people are responsible enough to not even want to pass on a cold to their friends and family. One wonders about the humanity of the anti-vax crowd. As you walk out and about unvaxed and unmasked, does it ease your conscience knowing that only about 1% of those you infect will die? Possibly less for omicron?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Porkncheese, posted 01-10-2022 4:01 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Theodoric, posted 01-13-2022 12:33 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 294 by AZPaul3, posted 01-13-2022 1:32 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19388
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 292 of 309 (891002)
01-13-2022 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Porkncheese
01-12-2022 10:58 AM


Re: Murdering people in the name of covid
Porkncheese writes:

Murdering people in the name of covid
New normal...
It's OK to kill a 20 year old in order to give a dying 85 year old a few more months alive...


So "murder" is another word you don't understand.

Even IF somebody died from the vaccination, nobody forced them to get vaccinated. If you invite your friend to come over for supper and he's run over by a bus on the way, you did not murder him.


"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Porkncheese, posted 01-12-2022 10:58 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7148
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 293 of 309 (891005)
01-13-2022 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Percy
01-13-2022 11:27 AM


Re: Me COVID and Vax
You are correct. It is not possible for Theodoric to know that his symptoms were mild because he was vaxed.

You present this as if I am speaking with no evidence. You and porkie are correct, I have no way of positively knowing, but if we go with the overwhelming scientific evidence I can make a reasonable conclusion that it had a very strong if not determinative effect. Science is not about proof it is about evidence. The evidence strongly supports my conclusion.
Latest info on comparison of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated.
A tale of two cities

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Percy, posted 01-13-2022 11:27 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6215
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.2


(2)
Message 294 of 309 (891012)
01-13-2022 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Percy
01-13-2022 11:27 AM


Re: Me COVID and Vax
You are correct. It is not possible for Theodoric to know that his symptoms were mild because he was vaxed.

Wait! What?

That 90% covers Theo and all other vaxxed. That coverage is so prevalent that one can only say mild symptoms were not vax moderated if you have copious evidence otherwise. I should think everyone recognizes vax = milder symptoms is the default unless shown otherwise for a specific individual.

So, yes, Theo is correct. He can reasonably attribute (know) his symptoms were milder with the vax. An absolute certainty is not required in this human condition. Requiring such in this kind of discussion is intended as obfuscation of evidence.

Edited by AZPaul3, : add thought


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Percy, posted 01-13-2022 11:27 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20507
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 295 of 309 (891020)
01-13-2022 3:23 PM


Replying to Theodoric's Message 293 and AZPaul3's Message 294:

Porkncheese and I were responding to what Theodoric said in Message 225:

The reason my symptoms were mild is because I am vaxed

If this had been more probabilistic I would have said something different.

--Percy


  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20507
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 8.4


(1)
Message 296 of 309 (891025)
01-13-2022 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Porkncheese
01-10-2022 5:53 PM


Re: "We took the risk now everyone else has to"
Porkncheese writes:

Go vax yourselves and leave us alone cos we aren't harming anyone.

As Theodoric already said, in the case of covid natural immunity is inferior to vaccine immunity. For some viruses natural immunity is superior, but that isn't true of the vaccines we've been able to develop for covid.

As I said before, though we use the word "immunity," it's the wrong word. Neither infection nor vaccines confer immunity. They just prime your immune system to fight off the virus. For example, people who have already had measles or mumps or have been vaccinated against them are not immune to them, though "immune" is the word we've chosen to use. All immunity to them really means is that our immune system is already primed to fight them off should we become reinfected. It does such a good job that in the case of measles and mumps our immune system fights them off so fast and effectively that in almost all cases we don't even notice we've been reinfected. For example, the measles vaccine is about 97% effective.

When you say you aren't harming anyone by going about your life unvaccinated (and presumably unmasked, though I haven't seen where you've commented on masks, yet), that isn't true. You're more likely to become infected than vaccinated people, and so more likely to spread the virus. What resistance (a more appropriate word than immunity) you do possess will always be less than those vaccinated at the same time as your infection. And since you also didn't have the second shot (in the case of Pfizer and Moderna) or the booster, your resistance is far less. You're basically a walking high potential virus vector.

Naturally societies want to protect themselves from those who would spread disease. You're not being discriminated against. Rather, society is trying to protect itself from you.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Porkncheese, posted 01-10-2022 5:53 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20507
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 297 of 309 (891026)
01-13-2022 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Porkncheese
01-10-2022 11:58 PM


Porkncheese writes:

I still haven't seen a valid explanation to why our rights are being attacked...

It's not true that your rights are being attacked, and you have seen "valid explanations" for why it's not true, we've all seen them, many of us have penned them, you're just ignoring them.

If the vaccine actually gave you immunity then you wouldn't have to worry about the unvaxed...
But we all know that you can still catch and spread covid just like the unvaxed...

I'm sorry that use of the word immunity has given you a false impression of what the immune responses to infection and vaccination actually do for us, but the immune response does not confer literal immunity. It confers resistance. Unfortunately "immunity" is the word already in use, we're stuck with it. Please stop taking advantage of the unfortunate terminology to misunderstand what is actually happening in the real world.

I bet some of you would cheer on our incarceration as well... Better yet why not exterminate us...
...
Cheering on the persecution and discrimination of people who have done nothing wrong... Not even the Germans did that... They ignored it

It feels like you're trying to push discussion into unproductive off-topic directions.

None of you have been able to tell me what I've done wrong

That's not true. Many of us have told you. Again, very briefly, you're contributing to prolonging the pandemic and putting upward pressure on cases, hospitalizations, and deaths.

The denigration of societal morals is synonymous with societal collapse and thats what we are seeing...
Sexual deviation is another classic sign of collapse; Greece, the Minoans, Rome, Babylon. Faggotry, men with dresses, lesbiansism... Classic sign of collapse

We are seeing a mass formation psychosis... Its a cognitive dissonance en masse... It happened in the USSR, China, Germany not so long ago

This the collapse of western democracy. Plato said that democracy will always be taken by totalitarianism...
He was right. We've seen it in history and we are seeing it now on a global scale...
And many useful idiots are helping the communists

Wow! Can the kitchen sink be far behind?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Porkncheese, posted 01-10-2022 11:58 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20507
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 8.4


(1)
Message 298 of 309 (891031)
01-13-2022 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Porkncheese
01-11-2022 12:51 AM


Porkncheese writes:

Justin Trudeau doesn't try to make excuses he tells it how it is

"Regardless of the fact that we are attacking your fundamental rights, we're still going to go ahead and do it"
"its a loophole that allows the majority to overwrite the fundamental rights of a minority"

You're misleadingly misquoting Trudeau from the video of him you yourself supplied. Why include a video that reveals you're lying?

Sorry to keep replying to your posts while you're suspended, but I'm slowiy catching up with the thread as I have spare moments, and watching your descent into nonsense, lies and trollism is fascinating.

Sometimes I wonder why a person becomes a troll. A couple members here have confided to me, I have no idea why, that sometimes they'll post just to get a rise out of people. Why would anyone do that? How does one live with oneself knowing that one is the kind of person who would do that? I don't get it.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Porkncheese, posted 01-11-2022 12:51 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by xongsmith, posted 01-13-2022 8:09 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2137
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 299 of 309 (891033)
01-13-2022 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Percy
01-13-2022 7:18 PM


Percy notes
sometimes they'll post just to get a rise out of people

i blame the internet ever since the famous typo

"pwned"

started a whole macho thing that fed the Rambo mentality of testosterone gone amok that manifests itself in part today as

"owning the libs".

Its sort of a temper tantrum thing when you realize that you have nothing you can answer with, so you trash the place down with

"Oh yeah? well, fuck you then!"


"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."

- xongsmith, 5.7d


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Percy, posted 01-13-2022 7:18 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20507
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 300 of 309 (891041)
01-14-2022 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Porkncheese
01-12-2022 7:56 AM


Porkncheese writes:

Please... Iv had covid... I was fine... I have natural immunity and can prove it with an antibody test...

I know you've had covid, you've told us a number of times. I never said anything indicating I didn't know you've had covid. I think you must give only a cursory glance at messages before dashing off a mindless free association-style reply.

But they aren't interested in who is immune they just want to jab everyone... Thats been their aim from the start

It's helps control spread of the virus a great deal if people have the high quality immunity provided by the vaccines.

Director of the CDC says that "over 75% of covid deaths happened in people with at least 4 comorbidities. These are people who were unwell to begin with"

You left out the part that makes clear the quote was about a study of fully vaccinated people, which the CDC director explained showed the vaccines were so effective that most vaccinated people who died of covid also had four other comorbidities. One would expect an equivalent study of unvaccinated people to show that those who died had fewer comorbidities.

I think you probably haven't noticed that most of the things you say, and you often say them multiple times, have been found wrong. That the misinformation you find and report here is untrue is easy to uncover, and the only reason people keep manufacturing these untruths is because most anti-vaxxers uncritically accept anything that confirms what they already believe, no matter how absurd. Apparently you found it believable that so many people have at least 4 comorbidities that over 600,000 caught covid and died. The reality is that the study included 28 people out of 1.2 million with at least 4 comorbidities who died.

Their only saying this now but its been known for a while that only 6% of covid deaths had no comorbidities.

This is probably true but very misleading because it doesn't place the information in context. Covid's a respiratory disease, and respiratory failure is a cause of many covid deaths. Respiratory failure is a comorbidity in a great many covid deaths.

You say only 6% of covid deaths have no other comorbidity, and I guess that's possible, though it seems that it should be even lower and that almost every covid death should have at least one other comorbidity. It doesn't seem like covid could actually kill people all by itself. That would be like dying from a cold virus, which would be very weird. Usually covid causes other problems, and it's the other problems that cause death.

After writing the above I looked this up. The claim originated with Trump on Twitter and has since been removed. My surmise was correct, see Fact check: 94% of individuals with additional causes of death still had COVID-19.

I'll be generous and bring the total deaths from covid in the USA down to 10% instead of 6%...
So instead of this inflated figure of 840,000 what we really have is only 84,000 deaths with an average age of 85yo. Life expectancy is 80

I can't make sense of this. If someone can make sense out of it please explain.

But the average age of covid deaths is not 85. This incorrect figure probably comes from the fact that approximately half of covid deaths are people 85 and over, but that's not how you calculate an average. The average age is probably fairly high, though, likely in the 70's somewhere.

The chances of someone my age dying from covid is tiny...

Not sure how to interpret this. I hope you're not saying you don't care about people in higher risk age groups.

Meanwhile the deaths and side effects from the experimental needles are being under reported...

And you know this because you read it on the Internet? People that die or suffer significant side effects generally end up in hospitals where it would get reported.

I've seen this here in Australia with people i know and doctors dismissing the syringe as a cause even when they have no other cause and even when it happened the next day

So the sample size is "people you know."

https://doctors4covidethics.org wouldn't approve of this image if they were actual doctors, because doctors understand how VAERS works and wouldn't have reported VAERS deaths as covid deaths. I'm not familiar with the data tracking in the UK and Europe. https://doctors4covidethics.org is an anti-vax organization. The first founding member listed is Sucharit Bhakdi about whom Wikipedia says:

quote:
Sucharit Bhakdi (สุจริต ภักดี [sut̚˨˩.t͡ɕa˨˩.rit̚˨˩ pʰak̚˦˥.diː˧]; born Sucharit Punyaratabandhu, สุจริต บุณยรัตพันธุ์, 1 November 1946, in Washington, D.C.) is a retired Thai-German microbiologist. In 2020 and 2021 Bhakdi became a prominent source of misinformation about the COVID-19 pandemic, claiming that the pandemic was "fake" and that COVID-19 vaccines were going to decimate the world's population.

He was a professor at the University of Mainz, where from 1991 to 2012 he was head of the Institute of Medical Microbiology and Hygiene. The university has disassociated itself from Bhakdi's views on the Coronavirus pandemic. In 2021 Bhakdi's publisher broke off relations following the appearance of an online video in which Bhakdi made antisemitic comments.


Needless to say but I will anyway, the vaccines did not "decimate the world's population."

What i find astonishing is how people were up in arms at the elderly dying from natural causes yet remain silent on young people dying from the needle

It shouldn't be surprising to encounter a lack of alarm at stuff you make up.

Why should i be forced to take these injections???

This is getting very repetitive. You ask why you're being pressured to get vaccinated, people explain, you ignore it and ask why you're being pressured to get vaccinated, people explain, you ignore it and ask why you're being pressured to get vaccinated, over and over.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Porkncheese, posted 01-12-2022 7:56 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
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