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Author Topic:   Church History In Plain Language (4th edition)
ringo
Member
Posts: 19233
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 9 of 51 (883394)
12-04-2020 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
12-04-2020 1:15 AM


Re: Off Topic Questions Answered
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

I have as much "subjective experience" of the Holy Spirit as you do.


Is so, why do you question it and go so far as to doubt it?

Because it's subjective.

Phat writes:

Shelley teaches us what the book says....


I doubt that very much. Every flavor-of-the-month apologist that you've brought up has been a Bible-denier. If they were really "teaching" what the Bible says, you wouldn't be so terrified of discussing them honestly.

Phat writes:

So what made you so willfully clueless in light of your subjective experience?


As i said, because it's subjective. It has no more relevance than my favorite movie or my favorite flavor of ice cream.

It's subjective. What part of that do you not understand?

Everybody has their own subjective experiences. They're all colored by the environment we grew up in. There is no universal truth to anybody's subjective experiences.

Phat writes:

Indeed. Yet you *do* jump to the conclusion that God does not exist.


Liar. I have never reached that conclusion.

Phat writes:

That Jesus was an amalgamation of several stories and myths.


That is not a jump. It's a logical progression which I have explained to you.

Phat writes:

The story speaks for itself.


So does Treasure Island. But it is a story.

Phat writes:

According to the Bible, the majority of humanity will deny that the Spirit is real. They prefer their own biological animal feelings over anything that may actually change and transform them for the better.


So, one more time: Why have YOU not been transformed?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 12-04-2020 1:15 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 12-04-2020 2:39 PM ringo has responded
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 12-06-2020 12:41 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19233
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 27 of 51 (883422)
12-07-2020 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
12-04-2020 2:39 PM


Re: Off Topic Questions Answered
Phat writes:

I am being transformed. I have not yet arrived. Care to argue?


Of course I care to argue. We are ALL "being transformed" - some for the better, some for the worse. The fact is that there is NO correlation between "transformation" and Christianity.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 12-04-2020 2:39 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 12-08-2020 11:52 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19233
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 28 of 51 (883423)
12-07-2020 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Phat
12-06-2020 12:41 PM


Re: Subjectivity In Saskatchewan
Phat writes:

First of all lets address this term "subjective". How do *you* know that the Holy Spirit is subjective?


For one thing, you said it was.

For another thing, there are thousands of religions on earth and millions of "subjects", each of them with his/her own experiences.

Phat writes:

I suppose you can argue that whether or not the Holy Spirit even exists is subject to your evidence...


Not "my" evodence. EVERYBODY's evidence, including yours. EVERYTHING depends on evidence, whether it's spooks - holy or unholy - or Bigfeet or leprechauns or electrons.

Phat writes:

... but "spirit" cannot be measured nor quantified though many *do* insist that it exists.


That's a king-sized cop-out. You've contrived your fictional entities so that they can not be quantified or measured.

Phat writes:

One problem is that you guys insist that evidence must be available to everyone whereas the Bible Thunkers insist that few will actually get it.


That's a problem for the Bible Thumpers. The Qur'an Thumpers say the same thing and the Dyanetics Thumpers say the same thing. The only link to reality that we can rely on is evidence that we all agree on.

Phat writes:

You have dismissed it all as a story anyway...


On the contrary, I embrace it as a story. You're the one who dismisses the story when it doesn't suit your own made-up wishes.

Phat writes:

Yet you insist that since I take it literal or claim to do so, I must sell everything...which is a clever way to back me into a corner


You've backed yourself into that corner. I have never suggested that you should sell everything. I have asked you why you don't - and how you can claim to be a follower of Jesus when you don't follow what He said. YOU are the one who is dismissing the story.

Phat writes:

And even if we agree with your arguments that they all are characters in a book (or books) we then must determine why the books were written to begin with.


Once upon a time, Charlie Brown wondered the same thing: Why did the author write the book? Linus replied, "Maybe he needed the money."

There are many reasons for writing books.

Phat writes:

Hint: Treasure Island was never meant to describe actual events


What makes you think the Bible does?

And again for the umpteenth time, if you think the events are real, why do you deny what Jesus said?

Phat writes:

And that was your choice--to assign "it" the relevance that you chose to give it.


Not at all. It has the relevance that the evidence gives it. Any thinking person gives it the same relevance.

Phat writes:

If I, as a character in a book described by many as eternally alive .. tell ringo to sell all that he has, he can simply write me off as Elmer Gantry.


And rightly so. There is no evidence that you or any other character is "eternally alive", so the claim is assigned to fiction.

Phat writes:

And yet there may be a singular universal truth that not everyone can or will see due to their experiences and conclusions thus far.


Once again, we fall back on, "By their fruits ye shall know them." If somebody claims to know "universal truth" and claims to see things that us ordinary peons don't see, we look for the fruits that they produce - i.e. we look for the evidence. Note that Jesus wasn't as contemptuous of evidence as you are.

Phat writes:

Reality is often muddied up as a perception due to experiences.


Which is why we need to make every effort to be objective and not cling to our individual perceptions.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 12-06-2020 12:41 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 12-08-2020 11:49 AM ringo has responded
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 12-10-2020 8:08 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19233
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 31 of 51 (883443)
12-08-2020 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
12-08-2020 11:49 AM


Re: Subjectivity In Saskatchewan
Phat writes:

Think carefully before rejecting Christ.


You're the guy who mocks thinking and says it's a bad idea.

And you're the guy who rejects what Christ said.

Phat writes:

The Holy Spirit is not your relativistic hippie spirit that you had in the sixties.


In the sixties I was pretty religious. By stereotyping me, you're just making a fool of yourself.

Phat writes:

... you and AZPaul3 smoked too much weed and let your rational brains take over once you stopped. We will come by in a truck and pick you up from your acid trip by the pyramid once you come down


Really, stop being an idiot.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 12-08-2020 11:49 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19233
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 36 of 51 (883476)
12-09-2020 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
12-08-2020 11:52 AM


Re: Off Topic Questions Answered
Phat writes:

Newsflash: The mind does not transform itself.


Of course it does. External stimuli can influence the transformation but only the mind itself can "control" the transformation.

Do you think the mind can be programmed? Parents. teachers. etc. can provide information but they can't control what the mind does with it. That's why we have rational people and the idiots who voted for Trump coming out of the same schools.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 12-08-2020 11:52 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by AZPaul3, posted 12-09-2020 1:57 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19233
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 44 of 51 (883487)
12-10-2020 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by AZPaul3
12-09-2020 1:57 PM


Re: Off Topic Questions Answered
AZPaul3 writes:

At an early age? Oh, you bet the human mind can be programmed. Just ask the Jesuits.


But it doesn't work. Catholic kids are more likely than most to operate outside their "programming".

AZPaul3 writes:

With effort you can program and re-program the collective mind of an entire society. Just ask Joseph Goebbels.


You can influence what people will do, just like you can convince people to wear masks by telling them the science is behind it.

My point with Phat was that the mind does change itself as a response to the stimuli that it receives, which is what you are saying.

The Catholic kids also receive stimuli from non-Catholic friends, from books that they're "not allowed to read", etc. They can not be programmed; they can only be influenced.

The German people quickly became disillusioned with Nazi propaganda and needed the Gestapo to keep them in line. Your computer needs no Gestapo to police its programming.

And the mind does not need an external entity like a holy spook to change it.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by AZPaul3, posted 12-09-2020 1:57 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by AZPaul3, posted 12-10-2020 3:58 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 12-10-2020 5:32 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19233
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 45 of 51 (883488)
12-10-2020 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
12-10-2020 8:08 AM


Re: Subjectivity In Saskatchewan
Phat writes:

Bruce Shelly's excellent book, which you so handily and ignorantly denounce....


Where did I do that?

Phat writes:

I am struck by the massive ignorance which both of you seem to have regarding the possibility that a living God interacts with humanity.


When have i ever rejected the possibility of a God interacting with humanity?

For God's sake, when you reply to me, reply to me, not to the crap that you make up in your head.

Phat writes:

Critical thinking limits you and shoehorns you into a way of thought that never considers un-evidenced events.


Critical thinking doesn't limit anybody. Jumping to the conclusions that you have been spoon-fed limits you.

And again, again, again... I have considered unevidenced events. They go into the unevidenced pile. No evidence for a "living God" goes into the same pile as no evidence for leprechauns. You also have an unevidenced pile. You're just not consistent about what you put in it.

Phat writes:

Do you honestly think and believe that an atheist/humanist could even understand the Bible?


Of course. Do you honestly believe that somebody who doesn't believe Frodo is real can understand The Lord of the Rings? Why don't you ever address that point?

Phat writes:

I could care less what Asimov's credentials are...


I didn't say a word about Asimov.

Phat writes:

...he is speaking on a subject with which he has no familiarity.


You have no clue about what he was familiar with.

Phat writes:

He does not have the Holy Spirit nor do you.


Nor do you. By their fruits ye shall know them.

Phat writes:

This is too funny, but the lot of you would wholeheartedly agree that there is none more qualified to explain a book about God and religion than the president of the Humanists!


And yet some Christians think that Christians are qualified to explain the Qur'an.

Phat writes:

I am simply stating that I in no way would bother reading his synopsis of the Bible as it would corrupt my thinking.


Exactly. You are admitting that what you've been taught is nothing but propaganda. It can't stand on its own. It has to be protected from outside influences. That's pretty weak for "absolute truth".

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 12-10-2020 8:08 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19233
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 51 of 51 (883531)
12-15-2020 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Phat
12-10-2020 5:32 PM


Re: Off Topic Questions Answered
Phat writes:

Evidently you began to believe in something stronger than the Creator of all seen and unseen...


No, it wasn't a matter of substituting one "something" for another. It was removing a worthless something, taking out the trash.

Phat writes:

Do you have any belief in such a Deity at all these days?


No. But that isn't the same as believing one doesn't exist. It's the belief that doesn't exist.

Phat writes:

The Holy Spirit is preferable to the spirit of the age, which is chock full of information yet lacking in truth or love.


Fundamentalist Christianity is much more lacking in truth and love.

Phat writes:

The mind will only transform through a transformative higher power.


Nonsense. There is no "higher power". By their fruits ye shall know the people who think there is.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 12-10-2020 5:32 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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