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Author | Topic: Church History In Plain Language (4th edition) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nwr Member Posts: 5647 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 7.4
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Yes. A lot of it is obviously made up. Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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jar Member Posts: 33125 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 4.6
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If someone has actually studied church history and read the Bible how could they not conclude that apologetics is all about making it up? Are there any televangelists that are not dishonest?
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Phat Member Posts: 14881 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
Upon reading the Bible, I concluded that the people known as the believers--in the Book of Acts...were by and large honest(because they were believers after all) and ringo and I have discussed Ananias and Sapphira and what happened to them and why. A lot is determined by what it means to "become a believer". Is it as simple as saying quote:The believers in Acts had no church. One could argue that it was the beginning of one of the Orthodox churches (which included Rome) or one could argue that it was the Ecclessia but even then we have questions. Take these scripture in context from the Book of Acts:
My point is that the "church" (aka the believers) became rapidly watered down as to their commitment, their anointing , and their purpose in life. If you recall, the very first Disciples left all that they had.( ringo seems to think that anyone calling themselves a believer should do likewise) We can deduce, however, that by the time the Roman Catholic Church had broken away from the Eastern Orthodox churches--indeed long before---the Christians and their leaders were already behaving very carnally, politically, and divisively.
I guess my question to you is this: Does a "registered member" equate to a "believer" or in some instances is the term merely a formality based upon a onetime public affirmation? Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : spelling "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 14881 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
So much to argue here!
![]() First of all lets address this term "subjective". How do *you* know that the Holy Spirit is subjective? I suppose you can argue that whether or not the Holy Spirit even exists is subject to your evidence, but "spirit" cannot be measured nor quantified though many *do* insist that it exists. One problem is that you guys insist that evidence must be available to everyone whereas the Bible Thunkers insist that few will actually get it. You have dismissed it all as a story anyway, which protects your spiritual responsibility. (Yet you insist that since I take it literal or claim to do so, I must sell everything...which is a clever way to back me into a corner And even if we agree with your arguments that they all are characters in a book (or books) we then must determine why the books were written to begin with. (Hint: Treasure Island was never meant to describe actual events)
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"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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jar Member Posts: 33125 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 4.6 |
Phat, the believers in Acts are simply characters in a story.
Once again, instead of actually addressing the question you wander off into totally unrelated areas. The characters in the stories found in Acts have absolutely NOTHING to do with the Apologists today. You ask once again how the Apologists could be tested and the answer is really, really, really, really, really simple; you compare what they say the Bible says to what is actually written in the Bible.
Once again, that has been answered again and again and again and again and again and again ... A "registered member" means that you have been acknowledged as being a member of an organization. Being a "believer" has NO uniform meaning whatsoever. Again, basic Christian History is a perfect example. All of the people that make up the "Church Christian" (or Muslim or Hebrew or Buddhist or Satanist or Hindu or ...) are believers. All are believers. That is a fact. But there is no universal or uniform or correct or TRUE belief. The Aryan Christian Church was not Trinitarian. The Roman Church was Trinitarian. Both were believers, believers in the same God and in Jesus but one group claimed that Jesus was God and not a separate individual while at the very same time claiming that Jesus sat at the Right Hand of God. That mutually exclusive set of claims is simply crazy and an example of the long existing dishonest that is characteristic of the Romanized Church (almost all modern Evangelical and Fundamentalist cults are certainly and verifiably part of the Romanized Church). Yes, since the Episcopal Church is a recognized chapter of Club Christian then if someone is a registered member of that Chapter that person is a Christian. It really is that simple. Yes, since the Episcopal Church through the Anglican Communion is part of the Romanized Christian Church and so yes even it exhibits the schizophrenia common to the Romanized Christian Church. Now a member of some unrecognized club that claims to be a Chapter of Club Christian may or may not have a right to identify as being a Christian. Unless the "church" you claim to be a member of is among the recognized chapters of Club Christian your identification as a "Christian? certain can and should be questioned. You might believe you are a Christian but I can provided testable and verifiable evidence of being a Christian. Evidence always trumps belief. Beliefs are just beliefs. They have no meaning or value or rational or reality beyond being what you believe.
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Phat Member Posts: 14881 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
The issue in this thread is twofold. To discuss Church History and human attempts to define Orthodoxy through various Councils vs Heresey and whether the truth of Jesus Christ as written is absolute or simply relative.
So lets address your question in Message 17
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Being a "believer" only has no uniform meaning in a generic sense of the word. We are talking about believers in Jesus Christ both then and now.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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jar Member Posts: 33125 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 4.6 |
Think Phat, really try to think.
The uniformity is that they all believe and all believe that their beliefs are the right beliefs.
And yet, they do. Many support ecumenicalism and so acknowledge that other religions can be equally valid which is why Imams and Rabbis and Monks have led worship in the National Cathedral. And Phat, when it came to the Aryan Christians and the Roman Christians BOTH groups were orthodox. What determined which dominated was might and power and economics and politics and not truth.
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Phat Member Posts: 14881 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
I would argue that of the 120 mentioned in Acts all were orthodox believers. Since that time, the unity of orthodoxy was challenged by the enemy infiltrating human understanding. The Aryans became heretics.....even if you argue that it was due to might and power. God is the only orthodox might and power and His Spirit has mercy on whom it so chooses. At one time He cxhose the Jews alone and unique among human peoples. At a later time He included the Gentiles who became believers(and doers) while some now argue that He includes everyone. I disagree. Its not that easy. He surely does His part and has mercy on whomsoever He chooses. And yes He could choose the other beliefs first...before the Club:Christians if we fail to accept the invitation. Or He may even choose to include everyone due to His endless mercy. But I think you are jumping the gun.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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jar Member Posts: 33125 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 4.6 |
Sheeszh.
World Salad Phat. And no, you do not argue you simply assert.
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Phat Member Posts: 14881 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
So can you argue that you and the registered members of your church could even hold a candle to the 120 believers in Acts? They believed that Jesus was eternally alive with us. They did not believe in relativism. The modern day critical thinker is clueless towards absolute truth, likely believes that it(He) does not even exist, and if so that it is a product of their imagination and thus allowably relativistic.
Edited by Phat, : spelling "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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jar Member Posts: 33125 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 4.6 |
There is no evidence that Absolute Truth exists and the evidence is what is written in the Bible stories. They are filled with relativistic truth.
The 120 believers in Acts are characters in a story.
Once again Phat this has been explained to you a brazillion times. The evidence shows that there is no Absolute Truth. It is not a matter of belief, it is the conclusion based on and supported by the evidence.
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ringo Member Posts: 18854 From: frozen wasteland Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
Of course I care to argue. We are ALL "being transformed" - some for the better, some for the worse. The fact is that there is NO correlation between "transformation" and Christianity. "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member Posts: 18854 From: frozen wasteland Joined: Member Rating: 3.8
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For one thing, you said it was. For another thing, there are thousands of religions on earth and millions of "subjects", each of them with his/her own experiences.
Not "my" evodence. EVERYBODY's evidence, including yours. EVERYTHING depends on evidence, whether it's spooks - holy or unholy - or Bigfeet or leprechauns or electrons.
That's a king-sized cop-out. You've contrived your fictional entities so that they can not be quantified or measured.
That's a problem for the Bible Thumpers. The Qur'an Thumpers say the same thing and the Dyanetics Thumpers say the same thing. The only link to reality that we can rely on is evidence that we all agree on.
On the contrary, I embrace it as a story. You're the one who dismisses the story when it doesn't suit your own made-up wishes.
You've backed yourself into that corner. I have never suggested that you should sell everything. I have asked you why you don't - and how you can claim to be a follower of Jesus when you don't follow what He said. YOU are the one who is dismissing the story.
Once upon a time, Charlie Brown wondered the same thing: Why did the author write the book? Linus replied, "Maybe he needed the money." There are many reasons for writing books.
What makes you think the Bible does? And again for the umpteenth time, if you think the events are real, why do you deny what Jesus said?
Not at all. It has the relevance that the evidence gives it. Any thinking person gives it the same relevance.
And rightly so. There is no evidence that you or any other character is "eternally alive", so the claim is assigned to fiction.
Once again, we fall back on, "By their fruits ye shall know them." If somebody claims to know "universal truth" and claims to see things that us ordinary peons don't see, we look for the fruits that they produce - i.e. we look for the evidence. Note that Jesus wasn't as contemptuous of evidence as you are.
Which is why we need to make every effort to be objective and not cling to our individual perceptions. "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Phat Member Posts: 14881 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
1)The Body Of Christ. 2) The rest.(which will, if stubborn enough, end up being the children of the antichrist.) Think carefully before rejecting Christ. The Holy Spirit is not your relativistic hippie spirit that you had in the sixties. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 14881 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
![]() "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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