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Author Topic:   Anti-theist
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 142 of 479 (884555)
02-24-2021 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Phat
02-23-2021 1:53 PM


Re: Get on doing whatever you do quietly
Phat writes:

Religion may be a human construct. Jesus Christ is not.


Jesus Christ is certainly a human construct. He was constructed first by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (and they weren't all using the same blueprint). He was thoroughly renovated by Paul. And many theologies - e.g. yours - have practically demolished Him.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Phat, posted 02-23-2021 1:53 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 02-25-2021 6:59 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


(2)
Message 145 of 479 (884604)
02-26-2021 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Phat
02-25-2021 6:59 AM


Re: Get on doing whatever you do quietly
Phat writes:

So you are telling me that He was NOT in the Beginning...


We've been through that before. John 1:1 does not say that Jesus was the Word.
Please, do the homework. Find anywhere in the rest of John or the whole New Testament where Jesus is referred to as the Word.

Phat writes:

... and that by inference God does not exist except as a human creation?


That's a whole different construction crew. One conclusion is not necessarily inferred by the other but both are based on the same evidence.

Phat writes:

If so we need to find you help.


The drowning man reaches out to a passer-by and says, "Let me help you. Let me pull you in."

Phat writes:

I suppose that we wont find much help in an anti-theism thread except perhaps a psychiatrist or two and mental health counseling.


Now you're just being silly. The one who believes in leprechauns is more likely to need counselling than the one who doesn't.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 02-25-2021 6:59 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by AZPaul3, posted 02-26-2021 5:32 PM ringo has responded
 Message 147 by Phat, posted 02-26-2021 11:56 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 174 of 479 (884662)
03-01-2021 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by AZPaul3
02-26-2021 5:32 PM


Re: Get on doing whatever you do quietly
AZPaul3 writes:

So what’s missing that would cause you to treat god in the same way you treat jesus? Or is there some additional element here that prevents their both being treated alike?


I didn't say I don't treat them alike. I only meant that they were constructed by different people in different times.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by AZPaul3, posted 02-26-2021 5:32 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 175 of 479 (884663)
03-01-2021 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Phat
02-26-2021 11:56 PM


Re: Word Eternal
Phat writes:

Which leads to several questions.
How does the Bible describe God as sounding (as reported by those who claimed to hear Him?)


What I said doesn't "lead" to that question. You're just trying to evade what I said.

Try again:

quote:
ringo writes:
John 1:1 does not say that Jesus was the Word.
Please, do the homework. Find anywhere in the rest of John or the whole New Testament where Jesus is referred to as the Word.

Have you done the homework?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Phat, posted 02-26-2021 11:56 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by PaulK, posted 03-01-2021 11:51 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 178 of 479 (884678)
03-02-2021 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by Phat
03-01-2021 3:16 PM


Re: Word Eternal
Phat writes:

I did do the homework....


Then you should understand that the word "word" does not refer to Jesus.

I did a quick (30 minute) scan again this morning:

Interestingly, the word "word" is capitalized only in John 1:1 and John 1:14 in the KJV. But it's the same word, capitalized or not, G3056 in Strong.

Here's every instance of the word "word" in John:

quote:
"The word which Jesus had said" Joh 2:22

"many more believed because of his own word" Joh 4:41

"the word that Jesus had soken" Joh 4:50

"He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me" Joh 5:24

"ye have not his word abiding in you" Joh 5:38

"If ye continue in my word" Joh 8:31

"my word hath no place in you." Joh 8:37

"ye cannot hear my word." Joh 8:43

"unto whom the word of God came" Joh 10:35

"the word that I have spoken" Joh 12:48

"the word which ye hear is not mine" Joh 14:24

"the word which I have spoken unto you" Joh 15:3

"the word that I said unto you" Joh 15:20

"that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law" Joh15:25

"they have kept thy word" Joh 17:6 (Jesus praying)

"I have given them thy word" Joh 17:14

"thy word is truth" Joh 17:17

"which shall believe on me through their word" Joh 17:20



Note that the context usually suggests that the word is separate from Jesus.

Here's every instance in the whole New Testament where "Jesus" and "word" are used in the same verse:

quote:
"word of Jesus" Mat 26:75

"Jesus heard the word" Mar 5:36

"the word that Jesus said" Mar 14:72

"Jesus answered him saying, It is written, That man shallnot live by bread alone, but by every word of God." Mar 4:4

"sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word" Luke 10:39

"Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word" Luke 24:19

"the word which Jesus had said" Joh 2:22

"the word that Jesus had spoken" Joh 4:50

"said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word" Joh 8:31

"word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus" Act 10:36

"the word of the Lord Jesus" Act 19:10

"whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus" Col 3:17

"the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ" Rev 1:2

"for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ." Rev 1:9

"for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God" Rev 20:4



Note the context again.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Phat, posted 03-01-2021 3:16 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 201 of 479 (884878)
03-11-2021 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by Phat
03-10-2021 4:52 PM


Re: Compromise.
Phat writes:

There may be many paths up the mountain, but there is One character of God at the top....


How (why) would you conclude that? How do you know it isn't a mountain range?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Phat, posted 03-10-2021 4:52 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Phat, posted 03-15-2021 6:32 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 207 of 479 (884936)
03-15-2021 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Phat
03-15-2021 6:32 AM


Re: Compromise.
Phat writes:

Because for one thing a mountain range analogy implies many "Gods".


Of course it does. That's the whole point. You said:
quote:
There may be many paths up the mountain, but there is One character of God at the top....

and I replied:
quote:
How (why) would you conclude that? How do you know it isn't a mountain range?

If there are many paths, why do you assume they're all up the same mountain? Why do you assume there is only one mountain?

All you've done is deny, deny, deny. Why don't you actually THINK about the question?

Phat writes:

I feel that Monotheism is better than either pantheism, polytheism, dualism or the old standby of Monism.


Your feelings are worthless. Say something substantial.

Phat writes:

Hopefully I wont have to explain why.


OF COURSE you have to explain why. It's a discussion site. Step one is explaining.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Phat, posted 03-15-2021 6:32 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 213 of 479 (885019)
03-19-2021 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Phat
03-19-2021 8:37 AM


Re: Mr.Deity Only Understands Gods in Literature
Phat writes:

Thus I can and will maintain some skepticism pending further evidence. (Evidence for me being less strict. If I see it, I likely will believe it, all other things being normal....


So you're not skeptical about your own infallibility.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Phat, posted 03-19-2021 8:37 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 03-21-2021 9:55 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 223 of 479 (885089)
03-22-2021 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Phat
03-21-2021 9:55 AM


Re: Mr.Deity Only Understands Gods in Literature
Phat writes:

Its not MY infallibility. If anything, it is His infallibility.


You think you infallibly know about His infallibility.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 03-21-2021 9:55 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Phat, posted 03-28-2021 7:54 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


(5)
Message 238 of 479 (885282)
04-01-2021 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Phat
03-28-2021 7:54 AM


Re: Ifallibility Due To Impartation Of His Spirit
Phat writes:

To say that choosing this decision makes me infallible is stretching it a bit.


On the conrtary, you have described yourself exactly as infallible. You trust infallibly that you have the right spirit dialled in.

Phat writes:

To think otherwise means that your expectation of fallibility within humans equates to doubt.


Of course it does. Doubt is the foundation of all rational thought. You can't reason without reliable premises and reliability must be tested.

Phat writes:

And a hasty retreat back to measurable evidence, which is a weak place to hang out.


It's not a retreat. It's a stronghold. It's the high ground.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Phat, posted 03-28-2021 7:54 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Phat, posted 04-01-2021 3:05 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 240 of 479 (885285)
04-01-2021 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Phat
04-01-2021 3:05 PM


Re: Descate vs Scripture
Phat writes:

Only if you choose to give more weight to Rene Descarte than you do to St.Paul or the authors of the Gospels.


Again, that's extremely rich coming from you. You're the one who gives little weight to the dusty old book.

Phat writes:

The clear meaning of the scriptures clashes with Descartes "Age of Reason" philosophies.


And you're the one who dismisses the clear meaning of the scriptures in favour of your self-serving interpretation, which you can't back up.

Phat writes:

Infallibility suggests arrogance. I would go more with certainty.


Same thing. If you're certain that you're right but you have no rational basis for your conclusions, then you believe you're infallible. And that's arrogance.

Phat writes:

Scripture clearly tells us that a double minded man is unstable in all his ways.


You should stop talking about what scripture "clearly says" because you reject scripture.

In any case, "double minded" does not refer to being fixated on one conclusion with no rational basis.

Phat writes:

Your way suggests that were a man to employ your "doubt" in his life, he would likely second guess his proposals even to marriage...such that the girl would likely dump you.


YES. Of course it does. "Cold feet" happen before almost every wedding. There would probably be fewer divorces if more people paid attention to the temperature of their feet.

(If you want an example of somebody who thinks like you do, watch Bus Stop, starring Marilyn Monroe.)


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Phat, posted 04-01-2021 3:05 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 275 of 479 (885522)
04-16-2021 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Phat
04-14-2021 6:23 PM


Re: Phat, Explain Yourself
Phat writes:

... the US is becoming less nationalistic and more globalist. We compromise far too much in this area. Right Wing patriots see this. As for Left Wing patriots, I'm not sure how they see anything apart from individually rather than collectively.


How can you call yourself a "moderate" when you agree whole-heartedly with the Right and admit that you don't know what the Left thinks?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Phat, posted 04-14-2021 6:23 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Phat, posted 04-17-2021 9:56 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


(2)
Message 279 of 479 (885544)
04-17-2021 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by Phat
04-17-2021 9:56 AM


Re: Far Left Behind
Phat writes:

You yourself have claimed Far Left ideology, and I like talking with you.


No, I have said that ideologies are for lazy thinkers. Skeptics need to be skeptical about everything. I have also said that in some ways I am more conservative than you.

Phat writes:

When I say I don't know what the Left is, what I really mean is that I dont understand a reason anybody would want to be Far Left.


You also don't know what "Far Left" means. So you were right the first time - you don't know what the Left thinks.

Phat writes:

Didnt Joe McCarthy get rid of all of you unpatriotic Globalists?


No. God got rid of Joe McCarthy.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Phat, posted 04-17-2021 9:56 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 283 of 479 (885552)
04-17-2021 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Phat
04-17-2021 1:38 PM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
Phat writes:

How dare he claim the high moral ground when he did nothing more that I could see than hand out spare change.


I've never claimed any moral high ground. What I've done is point out that YOUR God is entirely made up - i.e. you don't even accept your own source ( the Bible) unless it suits you.

Phat writes:

Now I love Isaiah Saldivar. Isaiah is humble. Many in my inner circle know him personally. He really does encounter and cast out demons.


No he really doesn't. That's a good place to start figuring out how honest he really is.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Phat, posted 04-17-2021 1:38 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 291 of 479 (885577)
04-19-2021 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by Phat
04-19-2021 4:38 AM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
Phat writes:

How can you be so sure that demons (or unexplained multiple personalities of some as yet unexplained source) do not exist?


The same way you can be so sure that Santa doesn't exist.

The realquestion here is: How can YOU and Saldivar be so sure that they DO exist?

Phat writes:

I don't think you have any reasonable alternate explanations.


There are plenty of alternative explanations, one of the most obvious being out-and-out fraud. You KNOW there are fraudulent examples of "exorcism".

Phat writes:

You simply assume that anything that cannot be objectively evidenced is non-existant.


No I don't. I CONCLUDE that without objective evudence there's no justification for assuming that something does exist. You use the same methodology for Santa, leprechauns, etc.

Phat writes:

I don't believe that *all* apologists are snake oil salesmen.


And yet you haven't been able to show us one honest one.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Phat, posted 04-19-2021 4:38 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Phat, posted 04-19-2021 11:09 AM ringo has responded
 Message 293 by Phat, posted 04-19-2021 11:13 AM ringo has responded

  
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