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Author Topic:   Anti-theist
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2306
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 66 of 464 (883971)
01-19-2021 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by mike the wiz
01-19-2021 6:49 PM


Why Miss Faith? There's always Mike the Wiz
Mike the Wiz writes:

The real reason I always win is because it is really God's wisdom in me.

Ah yes, yet another refreshing example of Christian humility.

Do you have anything of substance to say that is not about you?


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by mike the wiz, posted 01-19-2021 6:49 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2306
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 75 of 464 (884045)
01-21-2021 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Phat
01-20-2021 3:11 AM


Re: Guilt By Association
Phat writes:

jar goes so far as to claim the latter is absurd. I think he really despises the Biblical Christians, but he has no room to label their beliefs as impossible.

Those who have read and mastered the material have all the right to express their opinions on the material.

Phat, your response does not make sense to me.

When my wife died in 2012 in our bedroom, the first thing I got to deal with were the police, who all but accused me of murder. After they left, then I got to call all the friends and relatives, starting with the daughter. This was also quite unpleasant.

After that I was finally alone to deal with grief.

Tried to entertain myself by listening to some old 72 live concert Genesis but that just made me more sad.

So, I reread in order:

The Tao (short two hour read)
The Gospels (all four, takes days)
The Bhagavad Gita (one day, if dedicated)

That helped more than expected.

Do you see the difference in our subsequent behaviors?

Edited by anglagard, : missing letter


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 01-20-2021 3:11 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by jar, posted 01-21-2021 3:41 PM anglagard has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2306
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.5


(7)
Message 261 of 464 (885485)
04-14-2021 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Phat
04-14-2021 1:41 PM


Phat, Explain Yourself
Phat writes:

The Coming Civil War is a war between secular humanist ideology deciding what rules society will have and the old school authoritarians who believe in God and trust that as their SOURCE. Dont blame me.

I definitely blame you for what you just said.

secular humanist ideology = The Constitution of the United States of America
old school authoritarians = Nazis, Fascists, Communists, Traitors.

I took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Please explain this comment because as I read it, you are the sworn domestic enemy of every Veteran in the USA.


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Phat, posted 04-14-2021 1:41 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Phat, posted 04-14-2021 6:23 PM anglagard has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2306
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 285 of 464 (885555)
04-17-2021 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by jar
04-17-2021 1:02 PM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
jar writes:

The Character Jesus in the Bible Stories (and in the Episcopal Church the Bible is read in an organized fashion over a three year period) outlined what the duty of those that followed him should be; to feed, heal, clothe, shelter, protect, comfort, teach.

Those tasks also appear in EVERY moral system and are the same for Jews and Buddhists and Taoists and Muslims and Hindus and atheists and agnostics BUT as a Christian (I believe you think and claim to be a Christian) they are mandated and reinforced as the dismissal after the service.

The SOURCE is irrelevant. The charge remains. The duty remains.

Interesting, I have specifically studied all major religions to discover commonalities (along with differences, since they are but the other side of the same coin) and the one overriding commonality is not just to do no harm, but also "to feed, heal, clothe, shelter, protect, comfort, teach."

Of course, I am referring to core belief systems of major religions, not the weird mutations which often lead to de-facto murder.

I have a working hypothesis as to why. The basic obligation "to feed, heal, clothe, shelter, protect, comfort, teach" is essentially the essence of what separates general behavior of primates from other families, mammals from other orders, and in youth, even aves join us mammals in taking care of the young. The appeal of religion at its highest levels is hard-wired in a sense, mainly in primates, to some extent among mammals, and even evidenced by avians, (especially corvids, and parrots.)

Of course, in the past very much of religion is involved in how to explain natural phenomena of those and by those who lacked the hard evidence and mathematical tools to better explain such phenomena. (one thing about being a student of history is you have to ask yourself, "damn these guys sure fucked up in the past, wonder what he future will have to say about my shortcomings.")

Well, regardless of such motivations be they religious, biological, political, or philosophic, any source may lead to the same conclusion - namely "to feed, heal, clothe, shelter, protect, comfort, teach." That is the true and highest calling of the most honest and definitive of humans.

Edited by anglagard, : a few unclosed parentheses and a missing word


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by jar, posted 04-17-2021 1:02 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by Phat, posted 04-17-2021 6:49 PM anglagard has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2306
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 352 of 464 (886341)
05-16-2021 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 349 by Phat
05-16-2021 1:19 AM


Re: The Ten Commandments Of Progressive Christianity
Phat writes:

9) We Should Care More about Love and Less about Sex--

What does your wife have to say about this?

Oh, never mind, you never married.

Haven't you ever made love to a woman?

Oh, never mind, ......

Phat, feel free to let me know the minute you actually know what you are talking about, Name the subject - Christianity, religion in general, Philosophy, Science (any or all), Politics, History, Sex, whatever.

In the meantime, I would appreciate it if you had more respect for the words of Jesus Christ, which is the sacred duty of every Protestant, instead of further inflicting us with the fake Jesus you and your friends made up.

Edited by anglagard, : get rid of accidental space.


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Phat, posted 05-16-2021 1:19 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2306
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 369 of 464 (886550)
05-23-2021 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by Phat
05-23-2021 1:16 PM


Re: Some Idiot & Some Deity.
Phat writes:

I'm hoping that your wiseguy comment regarding truth being revealed by a "sacred universe" is tongue-in-cheek. Otherwise I will be forced to label you as one of *them* who worship the creation and ignore the Creator.

So says the "Christian" who ignores Christ.


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Phat, posted 05-23-2021 1:16 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by Phat, posted 05-23-2021 3:40 PM anglagard has responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2306
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 388 of 464 (886598)
05-26-2021 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 381 by Phat
05-26-2021 11:09 AM


The Knowledge of Jesus is Available to All
Phat writes:

Yesterday I was bored and found myself staring at the quotes that I had assembled in my signature. I focused on Leo Tolstoy and resolved to look up the book from which it was taken. (You remember Tolstoy...a respected author and intellectual near the turn of last century. He wrote War & Peace.

Jesus is not Leo Tolstoy, or Billy Graham, or Donald Trump. What they have to say, what anyone has to say, is based on the best information available. This means the Gospels, Pliny's letter to Trajan, a few offhand observations by the Roman Senators Tacitus and Suetonius, and Josephus. Everything else is commentary based upon these sources, or as often the case, made up wholecloth, with no regard for the originals.

Let's start with Pliny's letter to Trajan. Pliny, alarmed at the growth of this religion, is asking Trajan how should I treat Christians?

The full text Pliny's request and Trajan's reply of 112 CE are here and an overview here

Tacitus refers to the Christians, identifies the cause (Christ) and even mentions the crucifixion. The direct quote is as follows:

quote:
...To get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Chrestians[58] by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.

Tacitus' Annals 15.44

The Annals are from 115/116 CE.

Suetonius also mentions "Chrestus" as the leader of a bunch of Jewish "rioters."

quote:
During his reign many abuses were severely punished and put down, and no fewer new laws were made: a limit was set to expenditures; the public banquets were confined to a distribution of food; the sale of any kind of cooked viands in the taverns was forbidden, with the exception of pulse and vegetables, whereas before every sort of dainty was exposed for sale. Punishment was inflicted on the Christians,[11] a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition. He put an end to the diversions of the chariot drivers, who from immunity of long standing claimed the right of ranging at large and amusing themselves by cheating and robbing the people. The pantomimic actors and their partisans were banished from the city.

Lives of the Twelve Caesars. Nero 16.

quote:
Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome.

Lives of the Twelve Caesars. Claudius 25.

Lives of the Twelve Caesars (122 CE)

Titus Flavius Josephus has a bit more to say than a letter or offhand remark. This is contained in the Jewish War (75 CE) and Antiquities of the Jews (94 CE). It is not so much Josephus mentions Christ (maybe) or Christians but rather he does mention a lot of other characters of the time that appear in the Gospels and is the best contemporaneous source on Jewish history, customs, and religion. Brevity requires I leave it at that as Josephus alone could easily be the subject of an entire thread.

So, there you have it. Five sources within 100 years of the Crucifixion, three pagan, one Jewish, and the Gospels. Everything anyone claims to know about Jesus is either ultimately based on these sources, or made up whole cloth. Additionally, notice everything is a secondary source except for Pliny's letter and some parts of Josephus, who wrote about the events as they happened in the Jewish War.

For transparency, I have read the entirety of the Jewish War, Annals, The Twelve Caesars, and the Gospels, but not the Antiquities. Also, War and Peace is one of the three books I could not get much past 100 pages, the other two being Das Capital, and Mein Kampf.

So what can we conclude? Well, it is obvious to me there was a real person named Jesus Christ or likely something similar based on the fact he made quite an impression on some classical figures, which doesn't tend to happen if you never existed. So yes, someone of similar name did exist according to the pagans Tacitus and Suetonius, and likely the Jewish Josephus. We also know from these sources that Christianity had reached Rome less than 30 years after the Crucifixion. Pliny also shows Christianity was spreading to the provinces at a speedy rate. That is fast for a new religion, only Islam spread anywhere near that quickly.

Then we have the gospels, which is somewhat biased.

So, Phat, what have you read among these works I mentioned? Still believe Jesus to be "just a character in a book?"

Which books would those be?


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by Phat, posted 05-26-2021 11:09 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 389 by PaulK, posted 05-26-2021 1:39 PM anglagard has responded
 Message 390 by Phat, posted 05-26-2021 1:47 PM anglagard has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2306
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 391 of 464 (886601)
05-26-2021 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 389 by PaulK
05-26-2021 1:39 PM


Re: The Knowledge of Jesus is Available to All
PaulK writes:

His name would have been Yeshua or Yehoshua, transliterated into Greek as “Jesus” and his followers thought he was the Messiah (translated into “Christus” which became “Christ”)

That is why I used "or likely something similar." Granted, I should have made the "something similar" more definitive as in "definitely something similar, but I also wanted to include Jeshua and similar terms, which may have been used as well.

And I outright disagree with this:

quote:
....he made quite an impression on some classical figures, which doesn't tend to happen if you never existed.

None of those mentioned met Jesus or had any great knowledge of him - all of them but Josephus are primarily dealing with later followers.

I mentioned my sources and noted only Pliny's letter and parts of Josephus were primary. But Pliny does not mention Christ (or any Latin equivalent) in his letter. Josephus is not a primary source if and where he mentions Christ or the equivalent, or many other Biblical characters he mentions. He is a primary source when referring to Jewish customs, traditions, and religion.

Outside of the Gospels, which is religion and not history, there are no primary sources, just the nearest secondary sources.

In other words, I disagree with your disagreement based upon my scholarship.

(The “Chrestus” in Suetonius may indeed, have been someone else - named Chrestus)

That observation was noted long ago. The consensus of most Classical historians last I knew indicates Chrestus = Christ.

I still think there was such a person, but I think you’re overstating the evidence.

I think there was such a person, and stated my evidence. It appears we have agreement on the conclusion, but a disagreement over whether the evidence is "overstated."


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by PaulK, posted 05-26-2021 1:39 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by anglagard, posted 05-26-2021 3:09 PM anglagard has not yet responded
 Message 394 by dwise1, posted 05-26-2021 3:19 PM anglagard has responded
 Message 395 by PaulK, posted 05-26-2021 3:54 PM anglagard has responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2306
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 393 of 464 (886603)
05-26-2021 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by anglagard
05-26-2021 2:24 PM


Re: The Knowledge of Jesus is Available to All
Anglagard writes:

Outside of the Gospels, which is religion and not history, there are no primary sources, just the nearest secondary sources.

Technically, even the gospels are not a primary source as they were "written" between 90 - 100 CE.

Figured I best jump on this before someone else does.


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by anglagard, posted 05-26-2021 2:24 PM anglagard has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by dwise1, posted 05-26-2021 4:17 PM anglagard has responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2306
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 396 of 464 (886606)
05-26-2021 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by dwise1
05-26-2021 3:19 PM


Re: The Knowledge of Jesus is Available to All
I found a dual-language edition which had the original Greek text on one page and the English translation of the opposite page. When I went to the page for that quote, it wasn't there. Instead there was a footnote which stated that that reference to Jesus was not in the original, but rather had been added centuries later in Old Church Slavonic apparently by a monk.

In every claim I've heard of extra-biblical evidence for the existence of Jesus such as from Roman and other historians, it was always as a reference to there being a new religion in town and here's what they believed. Or, as in the Josephus case, it had been inserted much later.

That is why historians are reluctant to ascribe any reference to Christ in Josephus to Josephus. Later Christian insertions are definitely present in Josephus, the question of whether Josephus said it or was a later insertion may be determined by examining anything that appears out of place.

That is why Josephus is complicated. My main purpose is to state this is a primary source in determining the state of Judaism during the Flavian emperors, not that it is any direct evidence of the existence of Christ. Rather it sure is indispensable for understanding how this new religion developed out of the Essene branch of Judaism.

However, I do appreciate any additional material that I likely should have elaborated on further.


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by dwise1, posted 05-26-2021 3:19 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2306
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 398 of 464 (886608)
05-26-2021 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by PaulK
05-26-2021 3:54 PM


Re: The Knowledge of Jesus is Available to All
Now I see the problem. You are stating that the earliest acknowledgements of Christianity does not provide evidence of Christ. I am of the position that these earliest references imply a Christ. Well, it is a stretch to state implying is the same as stating, so point taken.

The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by PaulK, posted 05-26-2021 3:54 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 400 by PaulK, posted 05-26-2021 4:49 PM anglagard has responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2306
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 399 of 464 (886609)
05-26-2021 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 397 by dwise1
05-26-2021 4:17 PM


Re: The Knowledge of Jesus is Available to All
dwise1 writes:

There is also a lot of variation in practically every verse of the New Testament. They themselves were derived from several manuscripts which added things, left things out, or changed things. My NT Greek class used the Bruce Metzger bible which contains extensive footnotes showing what manuscripts each verse came from and what the variations were between the manuscripts.

That is why the Bible is not a history book, original text lost (if there ever was one), too many variations, too much added or deleted later for political purposes, no standard interpretation.

My posts are primarily about the earliest mention of Christianity from more secular sources, or in Josephus case, comprehensive first-hand knowledge of Judaism during his time. In doing so I implied early evidence of the existence of Christianity as a distinct religion was somehow synonymous with direct evidence of a Christ.

My unintentional mistake.


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by dwise1, posted 05-26-2021 4:17 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2306
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.5


(1)
Message 402 of 464 (886612)
05-26-2021 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 400 by PaulK
05-26-2021 4:49 PM


Re: The Knowledge of Jesus is Available to All
PaulK writes:

The problem is that - contrary to your assertion - Jesus himself did not make any impression on any of the authors.

Here is my answer:

quote:
Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome.

Your claim that Chretus is referring to someone other than Christ was not commonly accepted by historians 20 years ago, and I doubt much has changed since.

quote:
But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.

Seems a bit difficult to argue that Tacitus, seeming to supposedly know the details of Christ's demise, somehow is also failing to acknowledge someone named Christ was ultimately behind this event.

I stand by by current position and will move no further until I obtain more information.

That being said, you hinted that your acceptance someone approximately named Jesus Christ was an actual person from sources other than what I stated. What are these sources I am unfamiliar with, so I may judge their veracity according to my readings, however limited they may be.


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by PaulK, posted 05-26-2021 4:49 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by PaulK, posted 05-27-2021 1:06 AM anglagard has responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2306
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 404 of 464 (886614)
05-26-2021 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by Phat
05-23-2021 3:40 PM


Re: Point Taken
Phat writes:

Touche! But I never really ignore Him. I hear Him in my conscience. I just get mad when people who dont even believe He is alive insist that I listen to a character in a book. It seems like a fellow student trying to teach the class.

Phat, I don't consider you hateful, if that is of much condolence. My concern is that you are the very definition of fear and fear+hate = Trumpism, Nazism, Facism, intolerance, etc.

I have something on YouTube, I want you to watch, if you need to take a break from reading. Not a specific video, but rather an entire channel called Overly Sarcastic Productions. Blue is history, red is mythology. Never caught them in a lie, good to go is my reference. Oh, it is not Eurocentric. Might be helpful, blue does a video on early Christianity, may want to start there.

Enjoy, as a great sage once said.


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by Phat, posted 05-23-2021 3:40 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 406 by Phat, posted 05-27-2021 1:58 AM anglagard has responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2306
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 423 of 464 (886667)
05-29-2021 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by Phat
05-27-2021 1:58 AM


Re: Point Taken
Phat writes:

Just watched that video on Christianity and the summation of its history.
Based on what I've read and on my own common sense (intuition?) I agree largely with the conclusion of the author/creator. The Schism was well represented as was the politicization of the church. I am not simply an ignorant fundamentalist. (Though I can be a charismaniac at times

OK, Phat, I hope you did not stop at a single video concerning Christianity or Judaism. Overly Sarcastic Productions have hundreds of videos, Blue is history, Red is mythology.

If your preferred learning style is via video rather than books, that's OK, I can work with that. The important thing is to master the content, if nothing else it will be easier to keep up with jar and Ringo.

In the end, you owe it to yourself.


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Phat, posted 05-27-2021 1:58 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 424 by Phat, posted 05-30-2021 9:31 AM anglagard has responded

  
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