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Author Topic:   Anti-theist
PaulK
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Posts: 16860
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 81 of 464 (884201)
01-27-2021 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Stile
01-27-2021 11:21 AM


Re: Guilt By Association
Consider the phenomenon of stalking. Stalkers are often convinced that their targets love them, even though there is no real evidence of it. They let their feelings take control and warp their perceptions to the point where they believe that there is evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Stile, posted 01-27-2021 11:21 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
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Posts: 16860
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 83 of 464 (884203)
01-27-2021 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Stile
01-27-2021 11:57 AM


Re: Guilt By Association
I suggest that you do, in fact, use evidence to at least a degree. Your wife, for instance, agreed to marry you rather than taking out a restraining order.

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 Message 82 by Stile, posted 01-27-2021 11:57 AM Stile has responded

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PaulK
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Posts: 16860
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 87 of 464 (884208)
01-27-2021 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
01-27-2021 12:44 PM


Re: Guilt By Association
quote:
Hi Paul. Yes, it always seems to me that there are a few (but only a few) sticking points that prevents agreement or consensus between us.

quote:
1) Evidence

It shouldn’t be.

quote:
2) Relativism versus Christian Trinitarian Monotheism

I don’t think that either are a factor here.

quote:
3) Critical Thinking as a way of life and the sole approach towards examining belief systems...as opposed to necessary suppression of such a skill. (If you don't stand for something you may fall for anything)

Critical thinking is not nihilism. Critical thinking - done properly - is a concern for the truth and a determination to try to avoid error. It is critical thinking that stops us “falling for anything”. Refusing to be gullible does not make us gullible - choosing to be gullible will. That should be obvious.


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PaulK
Member
Posts: 16860
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 106 of 464 (884402)
02-16-2021 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
02-15-2021 8:57 PM


Re: Freedom of Speech vs Harmful Speech
That’s really not very honest of Craig.

First, why would it be necessary to have absolute proof? If the argument is merely very strong it still needs a better answer.

Second, God is supposedly only limited to what is logical possible. When Craig claims that it may be possible that bringing the maximum of people freely into God’s Kingdom requires this amount of suffering he is making a claim that it is logically impossible for that to be accomplished with less. Now that is a highly implausible claim - and theologically problematic for many Christians. But he doesn’t offer anything more than speculation.

So it’s more desperate clutching at straws than anything. Implicit in it is the fact that the argument from evil is almost certainly correct.


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PaulK
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Posts: 16860
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 109 of 464 (884409)
02-16-2021 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
02-16-2021 10:55 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
quote:
Not necessarily

I disagree. If the defence is “you don’t have absolute proof and there’s a highly implausible way you could be wrong” then it’s implicit that you are almost certainly correct. If you don’t accept that then you ought to give some reason why.

quote:
the argument from evil broken down by Australian Philosopher John Mackie. Note Mackies line of reasoning.

Craig seems to be asserting that he isn’t familiar with Mackie’s argument. He certainly doesn’t address it

Oh by the way I have some familiarity with Mackie’s work. I even own a copy of The Miracle of Theism and have referenced it here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 02-16-2021 10:55 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 16860
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 112 of 464 (884414)
02-16-2021 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
02-16-2021 3:04 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
quote:
I googled The Miracle Of Theism and noted the expensive price which it is selling for. I may have to take a trip to the Library to study this book, though I gleaned a lot just by reading the introduction.

The copy I have was quite cheap. It may still be readable on scribd, for free.

quote:
Digging further, I was disappointed to learn that Mackey was an atheist, though I did note his argument from evil had been refuted, successfully according to him, by a man named Alvin Plantingas Free Will Defense

Plantinga - who has contributed quite a lot of sophistry to the debate only managed to refute the Problem of Evil as a logical proof (and I regard the Free Will Defence as a failure even in that regard). I don’t consider that much of an achievement - and it leaves the evidential argument untouched.

quote:
Mackey is worthy of further study as he seems to intelligently present some deep well thought out arguments.

Mackie’s book is regarded as a classic, in my view rightly so.

quote:
On a random note, I do not believe that the most intelligent arguments are brought out by atheists, though there are far fewer Christians who are intelligent enough to engage in such philosophical discussions.

I’m not so sure, I’m not greatly impressed by Plantinga or Craig, and if there are better theistic arguments, where are they?


This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
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Posts: 16860
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 114 of 464 (884449)
02-20-2021 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Phat
02-19-2021 10:03 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
I note that your quote offers no real answer. Instead it undermines Craig’s answer. Jesus’ flock do not need suffering to be brought freely into the Kingdom.

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 Message 113 by Phat, posted 02-19-2021 10:03 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
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Posts: 16860
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 119 of 464 (884501)
02-22-2021 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Phat
02-22-2021 3:41 PM


Re: Guest Pastor
The arguments you quote from Craig don’t sound very good.

quote:
At the most abstract level, then, theism provides a plausible metaphysical foundation for the existence of abstract objects. And that’s the first reason why I think it's plausible to believe in God.

First you need to establish how abstract objects exist (if they do) and why they need a “metaphysical foundation”. And that is the subject of major philosophical debate.

quote:
God provides the best explanation of why the universe exists rather than nothing. Have you ever asked yourself why anything at all exists, or where the universe came from? Typically, atheists have said that the universe is just eternal, and that’s all. But surely this is unreasonable.

And that’s just silly. Unless he can give a good reason why God exists - and he can’t - he’s just swapped one problem for another without gaining anything. Understanding the universe is a job for science, not bad apologetics.


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PaulK
Member
Posts: 16860
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 120 of 464 (884502)
02-22-2021 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by PaulK
02-22-2021 4:18 PM


Re: Guest Pastor
I’ve read some of it and my assessment has changed. I was far too generous to Craig. The argument about abstracts is not just making contentious assumptions. It’s a confused mess which makes no sense. Well, that’s what you get for relying on sophistry.

This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
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Posts: 16860
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 149 of 464 (884612)
02-27-2021 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Phat
02-26-2021 11:56 PM


Re: Word Eternal
quote:
Did God have any form?

That people did not see a form on one occasion is a very weak argument. Consider
Exodus 33:20-23

20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face; for no one shall see me and live.” 21 And the Lord continued, “See, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock; 22 and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by; 23 then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back; but my face shall not be seen.”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Phat, posted 02-26-2021 11:56 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 16860
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 153 of 464 (884619)
02-27-2021 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Phat
02-27-2021 9:20 AM


Re: Word Eternal
The question is what is your view of the Bible. If you regard it as a message from God, to the taken as literally true when describing (alleged) historical events, God has a distinct front and a back, as well as a definite physical presence. That is what it says.

I’ll also add that the writing of the Bible is often not so simple as “they made it up” even if that is what happened in a number of cases.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Phat, posted 02-27-2021 9:20 AM Phat has responded

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 Message 154 by Phat, posted 02-27-2021 11:48 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16860
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 155 of 464 (884621)
02-27-2021 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Phat
02-27-2021 11:48 AM


Re: Word Eternal
quote:
But if you are a believer, what does the Spirit say to you?

When I was a believer nothing. At all. Ever.

But let me remind you of what you said:

questions.
  • How does the Bible describe God as sounding (as reported by those who claimed to hear Him?)
    Did God have any form?
  • How does that square with rejecting a clearly relevant description from the Bible?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 154 by Phat, posted 02-27-2021 11:48 AM Phat has responded

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    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 16860
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 4.0


    Message 157 of 464 (884624)
    02-27-2021 1:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 156 by Phat
    02-27-2021 12:50 PM


    Re: Word Eternal
    Of course common sense and critical thinking are clearly absent from your post.

    You did not really think that the Bible was a useful source for describing God’s form. Knowingly or not you just wanted to cherry-pick verses that seemed to support your view.

    Critical thinking would have revealed that and common sense would have told you it was a bad idea.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 156 by Phat, posted 02-27-2021 12:50 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 16860
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 4.0


    Message 159 of 464 (884627)
    02-27-2021 2:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 158 by Phat
    02-27-2021 2:09 PM


    Re: Word Eternal
    quote:
    Despite jars abhorrence of them, some apologists offer what to me seems like a logical interpretation of the whole Jacob Wrestling Fiasco.

    I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about my quote from Exodus 33.

    quote:
    Why Did God Make Jacob Wrestle With Him?

    And that’s a sermon that sort of works if you assume that the story is symbolic. Even then there are dubious points.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 158 by Phat, posted 02-27-2021 2:09 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
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    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 16860
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 4.0


    Message 162 of 464 (884640)
    02-28-2021 3:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 160 by Phat
    02-28-2021 1:30 AM


    Re: Word Eternal
    quote:
    Something tells me that you find more satisfaction in a quest for "dubiousness" rather than a quest for certainty.

    That’s probably your need to hide from the truth.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 160 by Phat, posted 02-28-2021 1:30 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 163 by Phat, posted 02-28-2021 8:31 AM PaulK has responded

      
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