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Author Topic:   Anti-theist
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 407 of 895 (886617)
05-27-2021 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 401 by Raphael
05-26-2021 6:51 PM


Re: Elvis has left the building.
I love your work Raphael -
First, flatter the opponent's argument, second, muddy the water while changing the subject and third, form your “meh” conclusion based on the changed subject.
Neat, but just rhetoric.
The central argument is not 'hermeneutical breadth' - a laughable concept in itself, indicating that believers can't decide what to believe - and it doesn't matter what the central claim of Islam or Christianity is, or even if there is one. The argument is what Harris says it is, that Christians are not in the least worried that Muslims believe that they are going to hell for believing the wrong thing.
That should demonstrate something pretty significant - that others hold beliefs just as strongly as you do that have devastating consequences if they're correct. Yet neither side cares. And that is what both sides - in fact all sides - look like to an atheist.
People inside can not see out because their curtains are closed.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by Raphael, posted 05-26-2021 6:51 PM Raphael has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 419 of 895 (886647)
05-29-2021 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 417 by Raphael
05-29-2021 5:31 AM


Re: Elvis has left the building.
Raphael writes:
At the core, we trust the stories of those who have come before to be true.
That's at least honest.
The problem with it though is that those that came before were highly superstitious, primitive people, full of magical thinking and story telling, myth making and whacky beliefs. As an oral tradition, it has all of the veracity of a game of telephone.
All that is known is written in your book and all of it is hearsay written decades after the supposed events by unknown authors - none of which are witnesses - then redacted and edited for political reasons. There is absolutely nothing there that can be relied on or confirmed by secondary evidence.
It's a very odd thing to base your life on - those stories not only can't be trusted, they don't deserve to be.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by Raphael, posted 05-29-2021 5:31 AM Raphael has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 421 by dwise1, posted 05-29-2021 11:36 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 422 by dwise1, posted 05-29-2021 12:09 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 428 of 895 (886684)
05-31-2021 3:38 AM


History of the Seventh-day Adventist movement
Seventh-day Adventists trace their origins to the teachings of the American preacher William Miller (1782-1849), who preached that the second coming, or "advent" of Jesus was imminent.
Unfortunately Jesus did not appear on the day in 1844 promised by Miller, which became known as the Great Disappointment, and many of his followers left his movement.
Miller was followed by Ellen G. White (1827-1915), a visionary and prophet.
White taught that Jesus had indeed come again, but not to Earth. Jesus had actually returned to the "most holy place" of the heavenly temple. Jesus, she said, had started to "cleanse" the heavenly temple, and when he had done that, he would come to start cleansing the Earth.
White also taught that the Sabbath should be held on Saturday.
BBC - Religions - Christianity: Seventh-day Adventists
I think when Raphael is explaining that his Faith is based on evidence and talking of epistemology and scholarship we need to keep in mind that his variant of Christianity was even more than usually a pure human invention. Originally based on one guy's prophesy that was proven false by events and resurrected by one woman's bonkers fantasy to keep it going.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 429 by dwise1, posted 05-31-2021 10:06 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 430 by ringo, posted 05-31-2021 12:18 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 433 of 895 (886692)
05-31-2021 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 432 by ringo
05-31-2021 12:57 PM


Re: Context
ringo writes:
My question is why does it take so much longer to cleanse the heavenly temple than the earthly one?
Why does it take any time at all? I mean, he's a god right?
[rhetorical]
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 432 by ringo, posted 05-31-2021 12:57 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 434 by Phat, posted 05-31-2021 3:38 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 435 of 895 (886696)
05-31-2021 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 434 by Phat
05-31-2021 3:38 PM


Re: Context
Phat writes:
Perhaps a Heavenly Temple would be made up of Living Stones, with Jesus being the "chief cornerstone." I'm just winging it on this one, but the symbolism is apt. The Living Stones themselves need to be cleaned up before any earthly temple needs scrubbing. Its just a building after all. And I've not studied anything from Ellen White, but may look into it all at a later time. One more thing. The Living Stones may have a job to do themselves on earth before finally being in Heaven.
Wow. Did that really make any sense to you?
Why does a god need time to scrub anything?
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 434 by Phat, posted 05-31-2021 3:38 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 436 by Phat, posted 05-31-2021 4:56 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 437 of 895 (886699)
05-31-2021 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 436 by Phat
05-31-2021 4:56 PM


Re: Context
Phat writes:
The Living Stones (us) need time. Even now we are being scrubbed through what we go through every day.
I really don't know what to say...you're just beyond reason.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by Phat, posted 05-31-2021 4:56 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 443 by Phat, posted 06-01-2021 10:34 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 445 of 895 (886720)
06-01-2021 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 443 by Phat
06-01-2021 10:34 AM


Re: Context
Phat writes:
Perhaps your understanding needs to grow. Perhaps you need to question your secular reasoning and consider allegory and parables as possible clues to insight.
I'm fine with parables and allegory; they're all part of good story making. What I'm not fine about is you believing that your works of pure fantasy are insights into some kind of 'truth.'

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by Phat, posted 06-01-2021 10:34 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 450 of 895 (886729)
06-02-2021 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 449 by Phat
06-02-2021 3:40 AM


Re: Context
Phat writes:
Why must all of you be doubters by nature?
Why don't you understand that when you say something as weird, fanatical and just downright daft as "Perhaps a Heavenly Temple would be made up of Living Stones, with Jesus being the "chief cornerstone." ... that would take 1,000 years to cleanse - the bullshit meter hits 11?
We're not doubters, we're just not insane.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by Phat, posted 06-02-2021 3:40 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 462 of 895 (886750)
06-04-2021 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 461 by Phat
06-04-2021 4:04 PM


Re: Elvis has left the building.
Phat writes:
Except that "telephone" works best when the story is unimportant.
That was me, not Percy and I assume you meant important not unimportant?
Important or otherwise, to work even at all, it needs to be short - like 5 words short. A book really doesn't do it.
There was much that was not written down. And we don't know for a fact who wrote what and what they did or did not witness.
Bit of a problem that, you have a single book of plagiarised stories by anonymous authors who didn't witness anything yet you're now implying we should give added credence to what is not written - of which we have entirely zero knowledge?
Are you saying that Jesus does not deserve to be trusted?
How can an imaginary figure be trusted? Do you trust Bilbo?
Name one other figure in History more worthy of our trust.
I'd go for my dad.
how can we trust ourselves in the present?
Does that question make sense to you? Can you explain it?
What are our other options?
Science is not alive "it" can say nothing.
Of course it can't, science is a process not a person, what's that got to do with anything at all?
Only we can interpret the data and say anything. And we can do the same with beliefs.
Right, show me the data that you processed for god.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by Phat, posted 06-04-2021 4:04 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 470 of 895 (888582)
09-21-2021 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by Phat
09-21-2021 4:02 PM


Re: Creator Of All Seen & Unseen
Your short absence and premature return hasn't helped.
Not that you ever actually left

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Phat, posted 09-21-2021 4:02 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 549 of 895 (893700)
04-18-2022 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 546 by Tanypteryx
04-18-2022 1:20 PM


Re: Justification: Impeccable Reasoning
I went to the doctor's complaining of an itching inner ear (I know, only 40 years left to live, get over it).
She said to try olive oil. It didn't work so she next recommended vinegar. I thought, fuck it, I'll do the full salad dressing with mustard and bit of honey.
Didn't work. Hydrocortisone killed it dead. Science.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 546 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-18-2022 1:20 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 630 of 895 (894803)
05-30-2022 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 629 by AZPaul3
05-30-2022 2:03 AM


Re: Prayer For The Universe
AZP writes:
What is there in catholic or christian or religious that is not to hate?
Some find the licensed kiddy-fiddling attractive.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 629 by AZPaul3, posted 05-30-2022 2:03 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 637 of 895 (894836)
05-30-2022 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 636 by Percy
05-30-2022 3:55 PM


Re: Prayer For The Universe
CS Lewis reckons it's the most embarrassing verse in the bible. Then he goes on to hand wave it away.
“Say what you like,” we shall be told, “the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.”
It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible.
The most embarrassing verse in the Bible

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 636 by Percy, posted 05-30-2022 3:55 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 668 of 895 (895091)
06-07-2022 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 667 by Phat
06-07-2022 5:39 PM


Re: Whose Money Is It Anyway?
Phat writes:
But no one cashes out their bank accounts and investments so that the homeless population of Pheonix has a grand week of meals, for example
But what would Jesus do Phat?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 667 by Phat, posted 06-07-2022 5:39 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 671 of 895 (895123)
06-08-2022 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 667 by Phat
06-07-2022 5:39 PM


Re: Whose Money Is It Anyway?
Just in case you actually haven't read it
The Rich and the Kingdom of God
18A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
19“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.
20You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’ ”
21“All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.
22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
23When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy.
24Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!
25Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
26Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?”
27Jesus replied, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”
28Peter said to him, “We have left all we had to follow you!”
29“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 667 by Phat, posted 06-07-2022 5:39 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 672 by Phat, posted 06-12-2022 6:57 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 673 by Phat, posted 06-12-2022 6:59 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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