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Author Topic:   Anti-theist
Phat
Member
Posts: 15596
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 136 of 465 (884538)
02-23-2021 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Tangle
02-23-2021 9:38 AM


Get on doing whatever you do quietly
Tangle writes:

The Jews have been waiting for that to happen longer than the Christians. It's just more self-importance that not only are you chosen personally while billions of others aren't, but also that all this other stuff will happen in YOUR lifetime that hasn't happened in all those years.

True. I honestly have to consider that and live strongly regardless.

No one but you fundies care about your stuff. So long as you get on doing whatever you do quietly and don't bother the rest of us, we simply don't care.

What will happen is what is happening, your religion will moderate and fade, that's all. It'll gradually die out like it's doing all over the modern world.

I know that you believe this and can see why you do believe it. It makes more logical and rational sense. The problem that I have with it is that you treat all religion(s) the same. Religion may be a human construct. Jesus Christ is not.

Tangle writes:

It is a martyr complex. But without the martyrdom, just a part of your self-importance and apocalyptical thinking.

I'll give you that. Even if I turned out to be another Loon, I would prefer that rather than for all of us to be tragically wrong.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Tangle, posted 02-23-2021 9:38 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Tangle, posted 02-23-2021 2:17 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 138 by AZPaul3, posted 02-23-2021 4:25 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 142 by ringo, posted 02-24-2021 11:27 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8200
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 137 of 465 (884540)
02-23-2021 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Phat
02-23-2021 1:53 PM


Re: Get on doing whatever you do quietly
quote:
I know that you believe this and can see why you do believe it. It makes more logical and rational sense.

It makes sense but more importantly it's measurably and objectively happening and has been for a couple of hundred years.

quote:
The problem that I have with it is that you treat all religion(s) the same. Religion may be a human construct. Jesus Christ is not.

Says Phat. Talk to a Jew, a Hindu, or other religious zealot and he'll tell you that his god is real not yours.

quote:
Even if I turned out to be another Loon, I would prefer that rather than for all of us to be tragically wrong.

Live a life in error, just in case eh? To coin a phrase ,"sad".


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Phat, posted 02-23-2021 1:53 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5986
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 138 of 465 (884543)
02-23-2021 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Phat
02-23-2021 1:53 PM


Re: Get on doing whatever you do quietly
Even if I turned out to be another Loon, I would prefer that rather than for all of us to be tragically wrong.

But the bet is more specific than that, Phat. You have chosen not just belief but a very specific belief.

Of the millions of gods in the human pantheon what are the chances you have chosen the wrong one? Yes, we know what your catechism says, but so does everyone's. What if you chose wrong even in choosing?

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Phat, posted 02-23-2021 1:53 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5790
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 139 of 465 (884544)
02-23-2021 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Phat
02-23-2021 1:43 PM


Re: Where There Is Smoke, There Is Fire
Jesus will not come back again

If you had stopped there, you would probably have been right. But, instead, you gave us a paragraph of wishful thinking which will turn out to be mostly wrong.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Phat, posted 02-23-2021 1:43 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33412
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 140 of 465 (884545)
02-23-2021 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Phat
02-23-2021 1:23 PM


Re: Tyrant Despots and the CCoI
LOL

But that is not what you market Phat; read what you post time after time.

The CCoI's only product is claiming that 'Jesus is gonna come down and kick ass and take names and everyone but me is gonna get us'n.'

That's been a staple marketing tool of the Christian Fear Mongers and Snake-Oil Salesmen for 2000 years.

'Buy the bottle or three today befo'e my wagon is be gone; it's good for whatever ails you."

If Jesus returns he will judge and it will be Atheists and Muslims and Satanists and Buddhists and Taoists and Jews that are accepted and damn few if any "True Christians".


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Phat, posted 02-23-2021 1:23 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by AZPaul3, posted 02-23-2021 5:39 PM jar has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5986
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 141 of 465 (884546)
02-23-2021 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by jar
02-23-2021 4:52 PM


Re: Tyrant Despots and the CCoI
If Jesus returns ...

Naw. Not in this thread.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by jar, posted 02-23-2021 4:52 PM jar has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 142 of 465 (884555)
02-24-2021 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Phat
02-23-2021 1:53 PM


Re: Get on doing whatever you do quietly
Phat writes:

Religion may be a human construct. Jesus Christ is not.


Jesus Christ is certainly a human construct. He was constructed first by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (and they weren't all using the same blueprint). He was thoroughly renovated by Paul. And many theologies - e.g. yours - have practically demolished Him.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Phat, posted 02-23-2021 1:53 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 02-25-2021 6:59 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15596
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 143 of 465 (884574)
02-25-2021 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by ringo
02-24-2021 11:27 AM


Re: Get on doing whatever you do quietly
So you are telling me that He was NOT in the Beginning (as Gods human character) and that by inference God does not exist except as a human creation? If so we need to find you help. I suppose that we wont find much help in an anti-theism thread except perhaps a psychiatrist or two and mental health counseling. Perhaps our gracious host, AZPaul3, has some insight. Or perhaps he himself is the host for something else....

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by ringo, posted 02-24-2021 11:27 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by AZPaul3, posted 02-25-2021 2:10 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 145 by ringo, posted 02-26-2021 11:17 AM Phat has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5986
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 144 of 465 (884583)
02-25-2021 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Phat
02-25-2021 6:59 AM


Re: Get on doing whatever you do quietly
Perhaps our gracious host, AZPaul3, has some insight.

Yeah. ringo is right on.

Or perhaps he himself is the host for something else....

See Message 462


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 02-25-2021 6:59 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 145 of 465 (884604)
02-26-2021 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Phat
02-25-2021 6:59 AM


Re: Get on doing whatever you do quietly
Phat writes:

So you are telling me that He was NOT in the Beginning...


We've been through that before. John 1:1 does not say that Jesus was the Word.
Please, do the homework. Find anywhere in the rest of John or the whole New Testament where Jesus is referred to as the Word.

Phat writes:

... and that by inference God does not exist except as a human creation?


That's a whole different construction crew. One conclusion is not necessarily inferred by the other but both are based on the same evidence.

Phat writes:

If so we need to find you help.


The drowning man reaches out to a passer-by and says, "Let me help you. Let me pull you in."

Phat writes:

I suppose that we wont find much help in an anti-theism thread except perhaps a psychiatrist or two and mental health counseling.


Now you're just being silly. The one who believes in leprechauns is more likely to need counselling than the one who doesn't.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 02-25-2021 6:59 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by AZPaul3, posted 02-26-2021 5:32 PM ringo has responded
 Message 147 by Phat, posted 02-26-2021 11:56 PM ringo has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5986
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 146 of 465 (884609)
02-26-2021 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by ringo
02-26-2021 11:17 AM


Re: Get on doing whatever you do quietly
Phat writes:
... and that by inference God does not exist except as a human creation?

That's a whole different construction crew. One conclusion is not necessarily inferred by the other but both are based on the same evidence.

So what’s missing that would cause you to treat god in the same way you treat jesus? Or is there some additional element here that prevents their both being treated alike?


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by ringo, posted 02-26-2021 11:17 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Phat, posted 02-27-2021 12:03 AM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 174 by ringo, posted 03-01-2021 11:29 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15596
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 147 of 465 (884610)
02-26-2021 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by ringo
02-26-2021 11:17 AM


Word Eternal
ringo writes:

John 1:1 does not say that Jesus was the Word.
Please, do the homework. Find anywhere in the rest of John or the whole New Testament where Jesus is referred to as the Word.

Which leads to several questions.
  • How does the Bible describe God as sounding (as reported by those who claimed to hear Him?)

    Did God have any form? Consider

    Deut 4:15 writes:

    You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire.

    This suggests to me that those sitting around the fire surely did not see the fire as God...but they did hear a voice. Idolatry of any idol(a carved image...literally a carved imagination) was expressly forbidden. Other religions never shared this trait. They all carved their own little deities.

    Im sure that AZ Paul3 has many adornments through his humble abode. And we wont even count the Penthouse special full of all sorts of imagined objects of devotion!


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 145 by ringo, posted 02-26-2021 11:17 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 149 by PaulK, posted 02-27-2021 5:23 AM Phat has responded
     Message 175 by ringo, posted 03-01-2021 11:33 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15596
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 148 of 465 (884611)
    02-27-2021 12:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 146 by AZPaul3
    02-26-2021 5:32 PM


    Re: Get on doing whatever you do quietly
    AZ writes:

    So what’s missing that would cause you to treat god in the same way you treat jesus? Or is there some additional element here that prevents their both being treated alike?

    Its a bit like treating a glass of water the same way that you would treat a Typhoon. Or treating an individual thought the way you would treat the whole brain/mind, were you contemplating the many qualities. Jesus is the same size as us....we can relate to a fellow human just as we can relate to ourselves. If The Borg or Q showed up one day and we had a brief opportunity, we most certainly would not talk to them the same way that we would a neighbor.

    Jesus is Gods character. The Mediator. The Go-Between. Yet Trinitarians insist there is no redundancy.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 146 by AZPaul3, posted 02-26-2021 5:32 PM AZPaul3 has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 150 by AZPaul3, posted 02-27-2021 7:05 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 16974
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 149 of 465 (884612)
    02-27-2021 5:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 147 by Phat
    02-26-2021 11:56 PM


    Re: Word Eternal
    quote:
    Did God have any form?

    That people did not see a form on one occasion is a very weak argument. Consider
    Exodus 33:20-23

    20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face; for no one shall see me and live.” 21 And the Lord continued, “See, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock; 22 and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by; 23 then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back; but my face shall not be seen.”

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 147 by Phat, posted 02-26-2021 11:56 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 151 by jar, posted 02-27-2021 7:12 AM PaulK has not yet responded
     Message 152 by Phat, posted 02-27-2021 9:20 AM PaulK has responded

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 5986
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 3.6


    Message 150 of 465 (884613)
    02-27-2021 7:05 AM
    Reply to: Message 148 by Phat
    02-27-2021 12:03 AM


    Re: Get on doing whatever you do quietly
    Its a bit like treating a glass of water the same way that you would treat a Typhoon.

    How can that be if they are the same? Is jesus not god? Is god not jesus.

    Are they the same or are they not?


    Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 148 by Phat, posted 02-27-2021 12:03 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
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