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Author Topic:   Anti-theist
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 151 of 465 (884614)
02-27-2021 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by PaulK
02-27-2021 5:23 AM


Re: Word Eternal
Look at the Biblical story of Israel being named. There god physically wrestles with a human. Sounds pretty much like having a form.

But of course the Bible is not one book, not one story and does not have a common god throughout the different stories there is no reason to expect consistency.

Every god ever discussed is simply the product of a human imagination.

Humans are symbol creating and communicating critters but most humans have never learned that the map is not the territory. The symbol apple is not an apple. The symbol Jesus is not Jesus and the symbol god is not god.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by PaulK, posted 02-27-2021 5:23 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15391
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 152 of 465 (884615)
02-27-2021 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by PaulK
02-27-2021 5:23 AM


Re: Word Eternal
Whats to argue? The Creator of all seen and unseen is not a mere man. I envision Him more as an energy field of immense depth, breadth, height, and mass----literally as Big or as Small as He needs ti be for any given manifestation. I see Jesus as in the beginning with God only in the sense that Jesus is Gods character.
Im not going to argue Biblical Semantics....Trinitarian Monotheism makes sense to me. For those who wish to go endless rounds arguing Biblical Inerrancy, I consider it a pointless argument. The Authors were inspired to write. They did not simply make up a book. If I believed otherwise, I would likely be an atheist along with the rest.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by PaulK, posted 02-27-2021 5:23 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by PaulK, posted 02-27-2021 11:28 AM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16861
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 153 of 465 (884619)
02-27-2021 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Phat
02-27-2021 9:20 AM


Re: Word Eternal
The question is what is your view of the Bible. If you regard it as a message from God, to the taken as literally true when describing (alleged) historical events, God has a distinct front and a back, as well as a definite physical presence. That is what it says.

I’ll also add that the writing of the Bible is often not so simple as “they made it up” even if that is what happened in a number of cases.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Phat, posted 02-27-2021 9:20 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Phat, posted 02-27-2021 11:48 AM PaulK has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15391
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 154 of 465 (884620)
02-27-2021 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by PaulK
02-27-2021 11:28 AM


Re: Word Eternal
PaulK writes:

If you regard it as a message from God, to the taken as literally true when describing (alleged) historical events, God has a distinct front and a back, as well as a definite physical presence. That is what it says.

But if you are a believer, what does the Spirit say to you? I can pretty much guarantee that in a room where believers are "in one accord" spiritually, everybody basically sees the same thing. It is only with weaker political Christians who claim Christianity yet dont have a clue who God is that you see problems. Obviously those who do not have a familiarity with the Holy Spirit by virtue of being skeptical critical thinkers or following another "spirit" of another religion wont get it either.

And I know that sounds elitist, but I don't mean it to sound that way...I'm simply laying out what I basically believe.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by PaulK, posted 02-27-2021 11:28 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by PaulK, posted 02-27-2021 12:08 PM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16861
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 155 of 465 (884621)
02-27-2021 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Phat
02-27-2021 11:48 AM


Re: Word Eternal
quote:
But if you are a believer, what does the Spirit say to you?

When I was a believer nothing. At all. Ever.

But let me remind you of what you said:

questions.
  • How does the Bible describe God as sounding (as reported by those who claimed to hear Him?)
    Did God have any form?
  • How does that square with rejecting a clearly relevant description from the Bible?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 154 by Phat, posted 02-27-2021 11:48 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 156 by Phat, posted 02-27-2021 12:50 PM PaulK has responded
     Message 158 by Phat, posted 02-27-2021 2:09 PM PaulK has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15391
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 156 of 465 (884622)
    02-27-2021 12:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 155 by PaulK
    02-27-2021 12:08 PM


    Re: Word Eternal
    I mean, its just common sense. For me at least, I see God the Father as the Creator of all seen and unseen. Such a Being would likely have no definite form unless I professed to be a Pantheist or had some other religious icon. Perhaps jar has already described the "disconnect" in that he claims that many of the CCoI seek SOURCE (God or His Spirit) rather than CONTENT (That which is written and described by and through many written commentaries including those that are nt strictly Christian)

    CONTENT is basically learning discipline in general...which includes Critical Thinking and the necessity for objective evidence. SOURCE only requires a belief and understanding. Form, objectivity, and verifiable evidence are optional.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 155 by PaulK, posted 02-27-2021 12:08 PM PaulK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 157 by PaulK, posted 02-27-2021 1:18 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 16861
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 4.0


    Message 157 of 465 (884624)
    02-27-2021 1:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 156 by Phat
    02-27-2021 12:50 PM


    Re: Word Eternal
    Of course common sense and critical thinking are clearly absent from your post.

    You did not really think that the Bible was a useful source for describing God’s form. Knowingly or not you just wanted to cherry-pick verses that seemed to support your view.

    Critical thinking would have revealed that and common sense would have told you it was a bad idea.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 156 by Phat, posted 02-27-2021 12:50 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15391
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 158 of 465 (884626)
    02-27-2021 2:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 155 by PaulK
    02-27-2021 12:08 PM


    Re: Word Eternal
    PaulK writes:

    How does that square with rejecting a clearly relevant description from the Bible?

    Despite jars abhorrence of them, some apologists offer what to me seems like a logical interpretation of the whole Jacob Wrestling Fiasco. Im not saying that I necessarily believe it exactly the way that it is described in this one example, but Were I to read the scripture, I likely would arrive at similar conclusions. There was an article in Christianity Today that asked the following question:
    Why Did God Make Jacob Wrestle With Him?

    I was intrigued by some of the suggested interpretations. I dont simply examine passages with critical thinking and imagined intent. I do tend to prefer Theo-centric explanations rather than human-centric ones.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 155 by PaulK, posted 02-27-2021 12:08 PM PaulK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 159 by PaulK, posted 02-27-2021 2:22 PM Phat has responded

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 16861
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 4.0


    Message 159 of 465 (884627)
    02-27-2021 2:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 158 by Phat
    02-27-2021 2:09 PM


    Re: Word Eternal
    quote:
    Despite jars abhorrence of them, some apologists offer what to me seems like a logical interpretation of the whole Jacob Wrestling Fiasco.

    I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about my quote from Exodus 33.

    quote:
    Why Did God Make Jacob Wrestle With Him?

    And that’s a sermon that sort of works if you assume that the story is symbolic. Even then there are dubious points.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 158 by Phat, posted 02-27-2021 2:09 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 160 by Phat, posted 02-28-2021 1:30 AM PaulK has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15391
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 160 of 465 (884634)
    02-28-2021 1:30 AM
    Reply to: Message 159 by PaulK
    02-27-2021 2:22 PM


    Re: Word Eternal
    Something tells me that you find more satisfaction in a quest for "dubiousness" rather than a quest for certainty.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 159 by PaulK, posted 02-27-2021 2:22 PM PaulK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 162 by PaulK, posted 02-28-2021 3:40 AM Phat has responded

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 5838
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 4.3


    Message 161 of 465 (884637)
    02-28-2021 3:15 AM


    OK, this week The Church has decided to pick on Phat some more.

    I know he really likes this guy.

    No, no I'm not equating his topic with Phat personally, but, as usual, I am at Phat's sloppy thinking about his creed. If we're going to drag Phat down to the depths of atheism we gotta get his thinking right first. A taste of baby can follow after that.

    Narcissism - inordinate fascination with oneself; excessive self-love; vanity.

    And to think this non-existent jesus guy was trying to teach quite the opposite.


    Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

    Replies to this message:
     Message 167 by Phat, posted 02-28-2021 3:41 PM AZPaul3 has responded

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 16861
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 4.0


    Message 162 of 465 (884640)
    02-28-2021 3:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 160 by Phat
    02-28-2021 1:30 AM


    Re: Word Eternal
    quote:
    Something tells me that you find more satisfaction in a quest for "dubiousness" rather than a quest for certainty.

    That’s probably your need to hide from the truth.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 160 by Phat, posted 02-28-2021 1:30 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 163 by Phat, posted 02-28-2021 8:31 AM PaulK has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15391
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 163 of 465 (884641)
    02-28-2021 8:31 AM
    Reply to: Message 162 by PaulK
    02-28-2021 3:40 AM


    Re: Word Eternal
    What "truth" are you talking about? Be specific.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 162 by PaulK, posted 02-28-2021 3:40 AM PaulK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 164 by PaulK, posted 02-28-2021 9:12 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 16861
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 4.0


    Message 164 of 465 (884642)
    02-28-2021 9:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 163 by Phat
    02-28-2021 8:31 AM


    Re: Word Eternal
    quote:
    What "truth" are you talking about? Be specific

    The real one, the one that I think underlies everything is that the Bible isn’t what you want it to be.

    You want the Bible to be a reliable record and you want it to agree with your beliefs. So you say:

  • How does the Bible describe God as sounding (as reported by those who claimed to hear Him?)
    Did God have any form?
  • But when I quote the more apposite Exodus 33 you simply dismiss it without explanation. And even when you try to deal with Jar’s reference to Genesis (ignoring my quote) all you actually provide is a sermon taking a symbolic interpretation.

    That does not look like someone who cares about the truth. That looks like someone who is only interested in propping up what they already believe.

    Edited by PaulK, : Fixed tag


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 163 by Phat, posted 02-28-2021 8:31 AM Phat has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 165 by jar, posted 02-28-2021 10:08 AM PaulK has not yet responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 33343
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 3.1


    Message 165 of 465 (884644)
    02-28-2021 10:08 AM
    Reply to: Message 164 by PaulK
    02-28-2021 9:12 AM


    Re: Word Eternal
    What I find interesting is that Phat doesn't seem to understand that in the Genesis reference the god character is simply a plot device and that it's only importance and significance is in regard to the naming of Israel and in outlining the reality that humans will always struggle with the concept of god.

    The god in that genesis story is a creation of the author designed and modeled simply to outline and highlight the topics of importance to that story.


    My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 164 by PaulK, posted 02-28-2021 9:12 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 166 by Phat, posted 02-28-2021 3:15 PM jar has responded

      
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