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Author Topic:   Anti-theist
dwise1
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Posts: 4479
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


(3)
Message 211 of 251 (885011)
03-19-2021 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Phat
03-18-2021 1:24 PM


Re: Mr.Deity Only Understands Gods in Literature
Seems Mister Deity wants to keep his rebellious traits...which is the whole reason that freethinkers reject God even if He DID exist. They want to keep their personality flaws and all.

Really? You really still believe that complete and utter BS lie your religion has poisoned your mind with? Despite having us here to explain it to you over and over and over and over again (as we have already done so many times).

 
Break it down to basics. You believe things. Why do you believe those things? What is the most basic reason for believing something? For anybody to believe something. Think about it.

The most basic reason for believing something is that you find it credible. You find it possible to believe it. Even if it is something that is completely and utterly false (eg, all of Q-Anon bat-shite crazy nonsense, Trump's claims (any of them, but currently the biggest porker is that he had actually won the election)), as long as you find it credible then you are able to believe it.

[Grammatical Note: the "you" used in this paragraph was the generic you what does not refer to you, Phat, personally but rather to some unspecified generic person. See also the English "one" (as in "What would one do in such a situation?"), the French "on" (surprisingly very heavily used; my ears prick up every time I hear it being used in French content on Netflix), the German "man" (eg, "Man ist, was man ißt", "One is what one eats."). ]

So then what happens when you (generic) cannot find something to be credible? Would one be able to believe in it? Only with difficulty, such that inordinate pressure would need to be exerted in order to convince you, ranging from peer or societal pressure (eg, old New Yorker cartoon in which one man at a cocktail party tells another, "Actually, my beliefs are the same as the Unitarians', except I'm not as brave as they are.") to the tools of the trade in the Inquisition (eg, thumbscrews, red-hot pokers).

Take that one more step: what happens when you (generic) find something completely incredible such that it is impossible for you to believe it? Would you (personal; AKA "Phat") be able to believe something that is clearly and undeniably incredible?

Why do you (personal, Phat) not believe in most of the gods that exist (eg, Wotan (AKA "Odin"), Thor, Zeus, Marduk, Bel and Anu (the Givers of the Law to Hammurabi), etc). At the most basic level, it is because you do not find them credible. Why do we atheists also not believe in them? Because we do not find them credible. Why do we also not believe in YHWH? For the same reason.

One old atheist argument to YHWH-ists (though mainly the Christian ones, since they are the more belligerent type) is to inform them that they are also atheists since they do not believe in any of those other gods; we just believe in one less god than they do.

 
Here is a testimonial from a local YEC activist who constantly and loudly proclaims that he used to be an atheist until he was "saved" by YEC. Let us evaluate his own testimonial from a tract that he told me he was very proud of (because of the formatting he could do because it was in an early Word format -- talk about how superficial these "true Christians" can be!):

quote:
WHY IS THIS GUY E MAILING PEOPLE AND OFFERING FREE BOOKS ON CREATION VS EVOLUTION?

Good question!

First off, let me share my history with you (don't worry, it will be brief).

I was raised in Buffalo, New York, and was fortunate to have great parents They took my sister and I to church every Sunday, we attended Sunday school and church camps in the summer. I believed in God, and never gave the issue much thought.

In sixth grade, I remember seeing a big colorful book produced by Time-Life. It caught my eye, and I opened it up and was pleased to see big colorful drawings. One set of drawings really caught my eye. There was a series of animated drawings that went across two pages. On the far left was a very ape-like character walking on all fours and covered with hair. The character to his right was a little more upright, he had shorter arms, was starting to walk on two legs and had less hair. This progression continued for a few more drawings until at the far right side of the page there was this handsome fellow, a human being! This is called the ascent of man chart that nearly everyone is familiar with.

In sixth grade, I looked at that chart for a while, smirked, thought it was ridiculous, and went outside and played softball.

Eventually I made it to ninth grade. While in a Biology class, the teacher was teaching us about evolution and placed the same chart up on the wall. I still remember it. I sat there and studied that chart for a long time. It was on that very day that I recognized a major conflict existed between what this teacher was saying and what the Bible taught. Should I believe my science teacher, who is teaching man has ascended from ape-like animals, or do I believe mommy, daddy, and that book (the Bible) that says God made man instantly from the dust of the ground?" I reasoned that this teacher is a scientist after all, so this must be valid information.

I had a choice to make that millions of people world wide are faced with. Do I believe the Bible or what is taught as science (please note I did not call it science).

In ninth grade I chose to go with the science teacher, and considered myself to be an atheist for about 14 years. I took many more science classes in high school and in college (I am a Mechanical Engineer), and none of these classes changed my beliefs, if anything they reinforced my atheist beliefs.

I assume the majority of you are in college now. Do you understand my story? I am pretty certain you have had several hours of your education dedicated to the teaching of the Theory of Evolution. I would love to hear how this affected you. Has it done anything to your faith? It obliterated mine!

Question! Why in 6th grade did I think the drawings were ridiculous, but in 9th grade I believed them?

Was it because I was more intellectual? No. Was it because the Biology teacher explained it so convincingly? Not really. The real reason for my becoming an atheist in 9th grade can be summed up in one word...hormones. In 6th grade I did not have much temptation in my life. Perhaps my biggest sins were a lie here and there, throwing snowballs at the school bus and riding my minibike where I shouldn't.

But in 9th grade a whole new world opened up to me. The temptation of drinking, drugs and premarital sex presented themselves to me at exactly the same time I was being taught evolution. I knew the Bible said that being drunk and having sex outside of marriage was wrong, but here is my science teacher, telling me the origin of man is completely contradictory to what the Bible taught as the origin of man. I felt excited.....and decided the Theory of Evolution was for me, after all the Bible was scientifically wrong on the very first page!! I considered myself to be an atheist. As an atheist I no longer had to abide by any rules but my own. If I wanted to get drunk, no problem, if I wanted to try to have premarital sex no problem, I now belonged to the evolution "religion" (religion meaning a system of beliefs built on faith) that allowed me to sin without guilt.

It was not the data that made me an atheist, it was the conclusion, a belief that made me the judge of right and wrong. Those cartoon drawings of ape men did look sharp, but I wanted to believe them emotionally, more than I really believed them intellectually.


No, that was not what had made him a fake atheist (in our email exchange, he insisted that every single night while he was an "atheist" he prayed to God and throughout the time he was an "atheist" he still believed in God, things that are completely inconsistent with actually being an actual atheist). And yet despite his having never actually being an actual atheist, but rather a self-serving fake atheist, he insists that he knows intimately what atheists think and believe and are motivated by. And he is completely and absolutely wrong. As are you. (OK, some atheists had fallen into the same legalistic trap that he had, but that does not speak for the rest of us)

Evolution never convinced him to become an "atheist". Rather, it was his own religious training that had done it. As a hormone-laden teenager, he was aching to sin, but because of his religious indoctrination that made him feel guilty. What was he to do?

But then there was that LoopHole that his indoctrination handed him on a silver platter. "If you are an atheist, then you can sin to your heart's delight. The only reason for you to be moral is because you are responsible to God. If you no longer believe in God, then you have nobody to be responsible to. You are free to sin all you want to. You could become a complete hedonist who runs down the street naked, raping all the women you could want to, while being a serial ax murderer killing everybody else with nothing to stop you." OK, rather extreme, but that is still what "true Christians" believe that atheists will "devolve" to. But if you were to ask atheists about that, they would affirm that if their Christian neighbors actually believed that if not for being a Christian then they would be a serial ax murderer, then by all means keep those Christian neighbors from ever losing their faith.

 
When my ex-wife (at the time non-ex) took a class in Developmental Psychology as part of her Elementary Education degree, she insisted that I also take that class, which I did. And when our older son went to the same university, we insisted that he also take that class, which he did. When my first grandson was about to be born, my present to them was the book, Experimenting with Babies, which I had heard of on Big Bang Theory.

Basically, developmental psychology involves "stages of development" in that certain kinds of cognition do not show up at first, but then do show up later as the child grows and develops. For the stages, use "Piaget" as a search word.

One chapter in the book (which I lost in the divorce) dealt with moral development, which is admittedly less rigorously developed as other traits. The earliest stages of moral development is based solidly on a single authority, the parent, to decide what is right or wrong. In that case, the authority gives you the rules and your moral responsibility is to follow those rules and your responsibility (ie, to whom you are answerable for breaking those rules) is to that authority, which is initially your own parent.

Then as you grow up, you find yourself challenged by more complex moral dilemma. Les Misérables in which a man becomes a life-long fugitive for having stolen a loaf of bread to feed his starving family. More modernly, I think it has been posed as a very dear family member needing life-saving medication that you cannot afford to buy so your only resort is to steal it. That is your moral dilemma between theft and saving a life. And that is the stuff of high drama.

But when applied to standard religious training, it becomes far more damning.

Why be good? I do not have access to the original text at the moment. A Baptist (or whatever) child has been given the religious education task of learning what the others believe (sorry, but sounds like a set-up to me). When the Baptist child asks why she should be good. The Unitarian minister responds, "Because it is the better way."

So why be good? To help others.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Phat, posted 03-18-2021 1:24 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Phat, posted 03-19-2021 8:37 AM dwise1 has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15104
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 212 of 251 (885015)
03-19-2021 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by dwise1
03-19-2021 12:26 AM


Re: Mr.Deity Only Understands Gods in Literature
I appreciate your sharing and your persspective. This isnt your first rodeo, I can tell.
So we are discussing what constitutes credulous versus incredulous observation.
We need to keep human nature in mind and not simply jump to the conclusion that demons are popping up in society like Covid-19 mutations.

Im keeping in mind also that many of the video captures of alleged demonic manifestations occur on the websites of deliverance ministries. Not too many independent sightings of such behavior. I reason that th demons, if they in fact have such ability or power, do not want to be publicized due to the consequences which would then occur regarding their presence. I also reason that most of the people are not consciously faking or exaggerating their prayer session, though they likely are expecting relief from their inner trials and tribulations when being prayed for. Its a bit like sick people expecting to get well when visiting old Oral Roberts back in the day.

Thus I can and will maintain some skepticism pending further evidence. (Evidence for me being less strict. If I see it, I likely will believe it, all other things being normal. If I see it in person, I am much more likely to believe it after taking into account the behavior of not just the victim but of the others who see it with me. I know that I know that I heard voices in the air the one time that I witnessed something, and it was in my apartment too. Im only critical and skeptical due to others urging me to be so.The strongest evidence I will have is if it (a deliverance) happens to me and I experience dramatic change that is lasting in my life...such as I had when I got born again.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : added comment


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by dwise1, posted 03-19-2021 12:26 AM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by ringo, posted 03-19-2021 12:40 PM Phat has responded
 Message 214 by dwise1, posted 03-19-2021 6:56 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18930
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 213 of 251 (885019)
03-19-2021 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Phat
03-19-2021 8:37 AM


Re: Mr.Deity Only Understands Gods in Literature
Phat writes:

Thus I can and will maintain some skepticism pending further evidence. (Evidence for me being less strict. If I see it, I likely will believe it, all other things being normal....


So you're not skeptical about your own infallibility.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Phat, posted 03-19-2021 8:37 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 03-21-2021 9:55 AM ringo has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4479
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


(2)
Message 214 of 251 (885038)
03-19-2021 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Phat
03-19-2021 8:37 AM


Re: Mr.Deity Only Understands Gods in Literature
I appreciate your sharing and your persspective. This isnt your first rodeo, I can tell.

As our minister would tell us a few times, there was a church member who once complained to the minister/pastor/priest that he kept giving the same sermons over and over again. The response was, "That's because you still have not learned them!"

We need to keep human nature in mind and not simply jump to the conclusion that demons are popping up in society like Covid-19 mutations.

Uh, demons is what you believe. We don't believe that stuff.

... the video captures of alleged demonic manifestations occur ...

The power of suggestion, also of gullibility.

Back in the 90's or so an insider to the Pat Robertson televangelism empire wrote a tell-all book about it, "Salvation for Sale". He described personally witnessing Pat Robertson performing a healing. A man was wheeled up in a wheelchair and when Pat Robertson laid his hands upon the man, the color returned to his pallid face and he presented much better, vastly improved. The author did a follow-up call a few days later and found that the man had died the next day after the "healing". It was the man's expectation at work, nothing supernatural that Pat Robertson had ever done.

 
Funny side story. Back when Crown bookstores were still a going concern, I asked the clerk if they had "Salvation for Sale". Without missing a beat, he replied that they didn't, but there was a church a few blocks down the street.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Phat, posted 03-19-2021 8:37 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5726
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


(2)
Message 215 of 251 (885068)
03-21-2021 3:12 AM


A Horseman Cometh
We are blessed today, brethren. One of my long time very good friends, the lead spirit for the four horsemen of the apocalypse, has consented to enlighten us today. And, yes, he is a very dear, close and honored friend since I got to see him speak, twice, from about the middle of the auditorium each time. I could see the twinkle in his eyes.

Some call him “intellect” some call him “asshole”. His greatness knows no bounds.

If you do not know the name, Christopher Hitchens, then get thee to a nunnery and pray for your deliverance. Or not.

This is long. If you’re already familiar with the arguments and have other entertainment elsewhere then the only reason to watch this is to see the intellect and the personality at work.

Religion poisons everything.
Why don’t we surrender to wishful thinking?
Religion’s view of morals is insulting.
Religion’s fear of freedom.
Who wants to be a serf in a celestial North Korea?
Mr. Jefferson, build up that wall. church v state

The second half of the vid is Q&A. Interesting and enlightening, as expected.

What would replace religion?
Churchianity in America. Yah, that’s spelled right.
Guantanamo Bay

Nice ending.

Next week, another guest. One of my favorite philosophs.

That is if there aren’t too many changes, and you know there are always changes. This universe appears in constant motion at all scales. Even the Hubble bubble itself, the visible universe we can see everywhere in all directions appears in motion. There is no static frame of reference because your very frame of reference is moving. Spin, spin, vroom, vroom. There is constant change.

But, I’ll try to minimize it and get our guest lined up.

Amen.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Phat, posted 03-21-2021 9:52 AM AZPaul3 has not yet responded
 Message 218 by nwr, posted 03-21-2021 10:08 AM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15104
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 216 of 251 (885071)
03-21-2021 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by AZPaul3
03-21-2021 3:12 AM


Re: A Horseman Cometh
I always liked Christopher. He was a wordsmith and often spoke in complete paragraphs rather than mere sentences. And even when faced with death, he never for a moment considered running over to the believers side.

So I bet you think I think he is in hell, right? Actually were I God, I would love to personally adopt Christopher and take a long walk with Him in the great beyond.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by AZPaul3, posted 03-21-2021 3:12 AM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Tangle, posted 03-21-2021 10:43 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15104
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 217 of 251 (885072)
03-21-2021 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by ringo
03-19-2021 12:40 PM


Re: Mr.Deity Only Understands Gods in Literature
Its not MY infallibility. If anything, it is His infallibility.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by ringo, posted 03-19-2021 12:40 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by ringo, posted 03-22-2021 12:55 PM Phat has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5671
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 218 of 251 (885073)
03-21-2021 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by AZPaul3
03-21-2021 3:12 AM


Re: A Horseman Cometh
Some call him “intellect” some call him “asshole”.

Those are not necessarily contradictory.

I appreciate Hitchens for his skills at rhetoric. But I never trusted his judgement. He came out on the wrong side of many issues. In particular, I disagreed with his views on the Iraq war.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by AZPaul3, posted 03-21-2021 3:12 AM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8089
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 219 of 251 (885074)
03-21-2021 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by Phat
03-21-2021 9:52 AM


Re: A Horseman Cometh
Phat writes:

So I bet you think I think he is in hell, right? Actually were I God, I would love to personally adopt Christopher and take a long walk with Him in the great beyond

But, according to your belief system, he is going to hell isn't he?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Phat, posted 03-21-2021 9:52 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by AZPaul3, posted 03-21-2021 11:45 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 221 by Phat, posted 03-22-2021 11:20 AM Tangle has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5726
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 220 of 251 (885075)
03-21-2021 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Tangle
03-21-2021 10:43 AM


Re: A Horseman Cometh
According to basic christian doctrine Hitch has haunted hell for a decade now.

Wouldn't be surprised if he so pissed off the management up there that god fludded the world with covid to get back at him.

But probably not.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Tangle, posted 03-21-2021 10:43 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15104
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 221 of 251 (885084)
03-22-2021 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Tangle
03-21-2021 10:43 AM


Re: A Horseman Cometh
The tangled One writes:

But, according to your belief system, he is going to hell isn't he?

Depends who you ask and also depends how literal you are an authoritarian regarding scripture. I will say this much. Hell, if hell exists is a place where free will that rejects God even after meeting Him will (must) reside.
Hell was never created for humans. It is a place where rebellious spirits must end up...since the universe(multiverse?) belongs to God and will where His loving judgement and edicts reign. God is giving all of us the timeframe and opportunity to choose. Christopher was very adamant that he would *never* accept such a God as the One of popular Christianity. Ironically, his less intelligent younger brother *did* accept God.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Tangle, posted 03-21-2021 10:43 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by AZPaul3, posted 03-22-2021 12:00 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 224 by Tangle, posted 03-22-2021 1:14 PM Phat has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5726
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 222 of 251 (885086)
03-22-2021 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Phat
03-22-2021 11:20 AM


Re: A Horseman Cometh
Hell was never created for humans. It is a place where rebellious spirits must end up...

Really. And you know this how? The bible? Dante's Inferno? Your own perceptions?

"Hell was never created for humans." How in lucifer's name could you possibly know that? Emotion? Catechism? Lack of critical thinking? Belief?

But no actual facts.

And let's take this one step further.

Since hell is a figment of a collective superstition, it isn't real. It's fake. A subterfuge. It's what they tell dumb little humans when they want them to be intimidated and pliable.

We in the sane end of the human gene pool know this. So what the hell are you going on about?


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Phat, posted 03-22-2021 11:20 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18930
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 223 of 251 (885089)
03-22-2021 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Phat
03-21-2021 9:55 AM


Re: Mr.Deity Only Understands Gods in Literature
Phat writes:

Its not MY infallibility. If anything, it is His infallibility.


You think you infallibly know about His infallibility.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 03-21-2021 9:55 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Phat, posted 03-28-2021 7:54 AM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8089
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 224 of 251 (885094)
03-22-2021 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Phat
03-22-2021 11:20 AM


Re: A Horseman Cometh
Phat writes:

Depends who you ask

Exactly.

I will say this much. Hell, if hell exists is a place where free will that rejects God even after meeting Him will (must) reside.

Depends who you ask.

Hell was never created for humans. It is a place where rebellious spirits must end up...since the universe(multiverse?) belongs to God and will where His loving judgement and edicts reign.

Depends who you ask.

God is giving all of us the timeframe and opportunity to choose.

Depends who you ask.

Thing is Phat, you can make up anything at all about this god can't you? It just depends who you ask.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Phat, posted 03-22-2021 11:20 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Phat, posted 03-22-2021 3:05 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15104
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 225 of 251 (885097)
03-22-2021 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by Tangle
03-22-2021 1:14 PM


Re: A Horseman Cometh
The excuses and explanations may all be relative but the truth is absolute.

I can ask a thousand people and it wont matter. They all wont be right.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Tangle, posted 03-22-2021 1:14 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Tangle, posted 03-22-2021 3:41 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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