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Author Topic:   Anti-theist
Tangle
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Posts: 8089
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 226 of 251 (885098)
03-22-2021 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Phat
03-22-2021 3:05 PM


Re: A Horseman Cometh
Phat writes:

The excuses and explanations may all be relative but the truth is absolute.

Except you have absolutely no clue what this 'truth' is have you? Because 'it depends' (on what you believe).

I can ask a thousand people and it wont matter. They all wont be right.

And yet, you know that YOU are right (and they know that they are right). Why doesn't that 'depend' too?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Phat, posted 03-22-2021 3:05 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5726
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 227 of 251 (885202)
03-28-2021 3:21 AM


Myths and Legends
Something a little different.

This is Prof. Joseph Campbell of myth and legend fame. His studies on how/why humans have myths, their meanings, but more importantly, their reflecting/shaping of the human psyche on everything from morals to cosmic truths, are legendary and respected the world over.

Three small videos. Less than 15 min total.

The local moral custom
Future mythology – about 2 min in is interesting
It’s all within us




Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Phat, posted 03-28-2021 6:13 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15104
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 228 of 251 (885203)
03-28-2021 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by AZPaul3
03-28-2021 3:21 AM


Re: Myths and Legends
Scientist AZ writes:

It’s all within us

What is "it"? I know cupcake..you think that we created all the myths, gods, and cultural stories. Its ok. You just go on believing that humans are the only source. jar will argue that its the content that counts... and you anti theists will basically gleefully report that WE are the source...like any good little antichrist robots long to say. all I can say is WRONG.

I like Joseph Campbell by the way...he is a polished humanist.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by AZPaul3, posted 03-28-2021 3:21 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by jar, posted 03-28-2021 7:26 AM Phat has responded
 Message 233 by AZPaul3, posted 03-28-2021 10:49 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33256
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 229 of 251 (885204)
03-28-2021 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Phat
03-28-2021 6:13 AM


Re: Myths and Legends
Phat writes:

all I can say is WRONG.

As usual. But what is absolutely necessary is to explain why it is wrong.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Phat, posted 03-28-2021 6:13 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Phat, posted 03-28-2021 8:03 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15104
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 230 of 251 (885206)
03-28-2021 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by ringo
03-22-2021 12:55 PM


Ifallibility Due To Impartation Of His Spirit
ringo writes:

You think you infallibly know about His infallibility.

True. I trust the belief that He chose me once I allowed for the possibility. I trusted that I had the right Spirit dialed in. I trust that a Creator of all seen and unseen,IF He desires a relationship, is waiting only for me to trust Him. To say that choosing this decision makes me infallible is stretching it a bit. I DO believe that I chose the right God. To think otherwise means that your expectation of fallibility within humans equates to doubt. Uncertainty. And a hasty retreat back to measurable evidence, which is a weak place to hang out.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by ringo, posted 03-22-2021 12:55 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by ringo, posted 04-01-2021 11:38 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15104
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 231 of 251 (885209)
03-28-2021 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by jar
03-28-2021 7:26 AM


Re: Myths and Legends
But what is absolutely necessary is to explain why it is wrong...
All that I can explain is why I believe that it is wrong.
I believe:
  • That it is wrong to be a relativist. All religions have value only in a human-centrist paradigm. There is only One God. No more than One is needed. I say to stand for something. Choose this day whom you will serve.

  • I believe that humanity is making a big mistake if we move away from religious belief and trust only in our own vain imaginations, even if we profess to be science minded.

    As to why I believe these things, all I can say is that I am intuitive. Whether I am right or not remains to be seen.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 229 by jar, posted 03-28-2021 7:26 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 232 by jar, posted 03-28-2021 8:58 AM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 33256
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 4.6


    Message 232 of 251 (885212)
    03-28-2021 8:58 AM
    Reply to: Message 231 by Phat
    03-28-2021 8:03 AM


    Re: Myths and Legends
    But none of those are reasoned arguments Phat.

    Phat writes:

    That it is wrong to be a relativist.

    You keep using that word, I don't think you know what it means. What is a relativist and why is it wrong?

    Phat writes:

    All religions have value only in a human-centrist paradigm.

    You keep using that word, I don't think you know what it means. What is a human-centrist paradigm and where else could a religion have any value?

    Phat writes:

    There is only One God. No more than One is needed.

    Why is even one needed? What does need have to do with reality? Why isn't there just one God described in the Bible? Why is the God of Genesis 1 different than the God of Genesis 2&3?

    Phat writes:

    I say to stand for something. Choose this day whom you will serve.

    LOL Why?

    Phat writes:

    I believe that humanity is making a big mistake if we move away from religious belief and trust only in our own vain imaginations, even if we profess to be science minded.

    And there you go off into utter fantasy yet again. Who other then the CCoI has ever said to trust in anyone's vain imaginations?

    In all the years you've been here Phat has anyone ever suggested not trusting vain imaginations but rather to look at the actual evidence?

    Edited by jar, : her ----> here


    My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 231 by Phat, posted 03-28-2021 8:03 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 234 by Phat, posted 03-31-2021 5:03 AM jar has responded

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 5726
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 4.8


    (1)
    Message 233 of 251 (885214)
    03-28-2021 10:49 AM
    Reply to: Message 228 by Phat
    03-28-2021 6:13 AM


    Re: Myths and Legends
    you think that we created all the myths, gods, and cultural stories.

    That is what the man said. And no one has any justifiable rational reason to suppose otherwise.

    I like Joseph Campbell by the way...he is a polished humanist.

    Yes, he is very much the buddha.


    Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 228 by Phat, posted 03-28-2021 6:13 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15104
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 234 of 251 (885270)
    03-31-2021 5:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 232 by jar
    03-28-2021 8:58 AM


    Re: Myths and Legends
    From Vocabulary.com:
    quote:
    Relativism is the belief that there's no absolute truth, only the truths that a particular individual or culture happen to believe. If you believe in relativism, then you think different people can have different views about what's moral and immoral.
    Thats the definition that I thought it was.

    IF: GOD exists.
    And
    IF Jesus Christ is God...in the manner of representing His human character
    And
    IF: Through Jesus ALL things were created
    Then it follows that relativism is false.

    I happen to believe that the concept is false. That's about as far as I can argue.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 232 by jar, posted 03-28-2021 8:58 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 235 by AZPaul3, posted 03-31-2021 5:25 AM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 236 by jar, posted 03-31-2021 7:02 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 5726
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 4.8


    Message 235 of 251 (885271)
    03-31-2021 5:25 AM
    Reply to: Message 234 by Phat
    03-31-2021 5:03 AM


    Re: Myths and Legends
    1. God
    2. Jesus = God
    3. Through Jesus ALL things were created

    There is no connection to relativity. How does relativity get negated when it is not a stated part anywhere in your sillygizm?

    And even then, what makes you think god/jesus/creating didn't make relative things? or make things relative?

    Your syllogism, Phat, is ... bad. Way bad.


    Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 234 by Phat, posted 03-31-2021 5:03 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 33256
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 4.6


    (1)
    Message 236 of 251 (885272)
    03-31-2021 7:02 AM
    Reply to: Message 234 by Phat
    03-31-2021 5:03 AM


    Re: Myths and Legends
    But what you claim is NOT what the Bible says.

    No where in the Bible is there even a hint that your second or third assertion are true. To add to the errors there is nothing in the first three assertions that has anything to do with relativism.

    What you have presented is NOT a reasoned argument.


    My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 234 by Phat, posted 03-31-2021 5:03 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    nwr
    Member
    Posts: 5671
    From: Geneva, Illinois
    Joined: 08-08-2005
    Member Rating: 8.3


    (5)
    Message 237 of 251 (885273)
    03-31-2021 10:33 AM


    Relativism
    What amuses me is that the strongest opponents of relativism (typically fundie preachers) are so obviously relativists themselves.

    Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18930
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 4.0


    (5)
    Message 238 of 251 (885282)
    04-01-2021 11:38 AM
    Reply to: Message 230 by Phat
    03-28-2021 7:54 AM


    Re: Ifallibility Due To Impartation Of His Spirit
    Phat writes:

    To say that choosing this decision makes me infallible is stretching it a bit.


    On the conrtary, you have described yourself exactly as infallible. You trust infallibly that you have the right spirit dialled in.

    Phat writes:

    To think otherwise means that your expectation of fallibility within humans equates to doubt.


    Of course it does. Doubt is the foundation of all rational thought. You can't reason without reliable premises and reliability must be tested.

    Phat writes:

    And a hasty retreat back to measurable evidence, which is a weak place to hang out.


    It's not a retreat. It's a stronghold. It's the high ground.

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 230 by Phat, posted 03-28-2021 7:54 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 239 by Phat, posted 04-01-2021 3:05 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15104
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 239 of 251 (885283)
    04-01-2021 3:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 238 by ringo
    04-01-2021 11:38 AM


    Descate vs Scripture
    ringo writes:

    Doubt is the foundation of all rational thought. You can't reason without reliable premises and reliability must be tested.

    Only if you choose to give more weight to Rene Descarte than you do to St.Paul or the authors of the Gospels.
    Viines Dictionary writes:

    DOUBT (BE IN, MAKE TO), DOUBTFUL, DOUBTING
    1. aporeo NT:639, always used in the middle voice, lit. means "to be without a way" (a, negative, poros, "a way, transit"), "to be without resources, embarrassed, in doubt, perplexity, at a loss," as was Herod regarding John the Baptist, Mark 6:20 (RV, following the most authentic mss., "was much perplexed"); as the disciples were, regarding the Lord's betrayal, John 13:22, "doubting"; and regarding the absence of His body from the tomb, Luke 24:4, "were perplexed"; as was Festus, about the nature of the accusations brought against Paul, Acts 25:20, KJV "doubted," RV, "being perplexed"; as Paul was, in his experiences of trial 2 Cor 4:8, "perplexed," and, as to the attitude of the believers of the churches in Galatia towards Judaistic errors, Gal 4:20, KJV, "I stand in doubt," RV, "I am perplexed." Perplexity is the main idea. See PERPLEX. Cf. the noun aporia, "distress," Luke 21:25.

    2. diaporeo NT:1280, dia, "asunder" (intensive), and No. 1, signifies "to be thoroughly perplexed," with a perplexity amounting to despair, Acts 2:12; 5:24 and 10:17, KJV, "were in doubt," "doubted," RV, "were (was) perplexed." See also Luke 9:7 (some mss. have it in Luke 24:4, where the most authentic have No. 1). See PERPLEX.

    3. diakrino NT:1252: see CONTEND and DIFFER, A, No. 2; in Acts 11:12, KJV, "nothing doubting," RV, "making no distinction"; in Jude 22, RV, "who are in doubt" (KJV, "making a difference," RV, marg., "while they dispute"); in James 1:6, KJV, "wavereth," RV, "doubteth." This verb suggests, not so much weakness of faith, as lack of it (contrast, Nos. 4 and 5).

    4. distazo NT:1365, "to stand in two ways" (dis, "double," stasis, "a standing"), implying "uncertainty which way to take," is used in Matt 14:31 and 28:17; said of believers whose faith is small. Cf. No 5. (Double Mindednesss)

    5. meteorizo NT:3349, from meteoros (Eng., "meteor"), signifying "in mid air, raised on high," was primarily used of putting a ship out to sea, or of "raising" fortifications, or of the "rising" of the wind. In the Sept., it is used, e. g., in Mic 4:1, of the "exaltation" of the Lord's house; in Ezek 10:16, of the "lifting" up of the wings of the cherubim; in Obad 4, of the "mounting" up of the eagle; in the NT metaphorically, of "being anxious," through a "distracted" state of mind, of "wavering" between hope and fear, Luke 12:29, "neither be ye of doubtful mind" (KJV, marg., "live not in careful suspense"), addressed to those who have little faith. (Note The interpretation "do not exalt yourselves" is not in keeping with the context.

    6. psuchen airo, lit., "to raise the breath, or to lift the soul," signifies "to hold in suspense," RV of John 10:24 (KJV, "make us to doubt"), suggestive of "an objective suspense due to lack of light" (Warfield), through a failure of their expectations, rather than, subjectively, through unbelief The meaning may thus be, "How long dost Thou raise our expectations without satisfying them?"

    (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

    The clear meaning of the scriptures clashes with Descartes "Age of Reason" philosophies.

    Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy writes:

    Descartes opens the First Meditation asserting the need “to demolish everything completely and start again right from the foundations” (AT 7:17, CSM 2:12). The passage adds:

    Reason now leads me to think that I should hold back my assent from opinions which are not completely certain and indubitable just as carefully as I do from those which are patently false. So, for the purpose of rejecting all my opinions, it will be enough if I find in each of them at least some reason for doubt. (AT 7:18, CSM 2:12)
    In the architectural analogy, we can think of bulldozers as the ground clearing tools of demolition. For knowledge building, Descartes construes sceptical doubts as the ground clearing tools of epistemic demolition. Bulldozers undermine literal ground; doubt undermines epistemic ground. Using skeptical doubts, the meditator shows how to find “some reason for doubt” in all his preexisting claims to knowledge.

    The ultimate aim of the method is constructive. Unlike “the skeptics, who doubt only for the sake of doubting,” Descartes aims “to reach certainty – to cast aside the loose earth and sand so as to come upon rock or clay” (Discourse 3, AT 6:29, CSM 1:125). Bulldozers are typically used for destructive ends, as are sceptical doubts. Descartes’ methodical innovation is to employ demolition for constructive ends. Where a bulldozer’s force overpowers the ground, its effects are destructive. Where the ground’s firmness resists the bulldozer’s force, the bulldozer might be used constructively – using it to reveal the ground as firm. Descartes thus uses skeptical doubts to test the firmness of candidates put forward for the foundations of knowledge.

    According to at least one prominent critic, this employment of skeptical doubtis unnecessary and excessive. Writes Gassendi:

    There is just one point I am not clear about, namely why you did not make a simple and brief statement to the effect that you were regarding your previous knowledge as uncertain so that you could later single out what you found to be true. Why instead did you consider everything as false, which seems more like adopting a new prejudice than relinquishing an old one? This strategy made it necessary for you to convince yourself by imagining a deceiving God or some evil demon who tricks us, whereas it would surely have been sufficient to cite the darkness of the human mind or the weakness of our nature.

    In this case, I agree with Gassendi the critic of Descartes.

    Note that Vines says that The interpretation "do not exalt yourselves" is not in keeping with the context. Infallibility suggests arrogance. I would go more with certainty. Scripture clearly tells us that a double minded man is unstable in all his ways. Your way suggests that were a man to employ your "doubt" in his life, he would likely second guess his proposals even to marriage...such that the girl would likely dump you.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 238 by ringo, posted 04-01-2021 11:38 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 240 by ringo, posted 04-01-2021 4:17 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18930
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 4.0


    (1)
    Message 240 of 251 (885285)
    04-01-2021 4:17 PM
    Reply to: Message 239 by Phat
    04-01-2021 3:05 PM


    Re: Descate vs Scripture
    Phat writes:

    Only if you choose to give more weight to Rene Descarte than you do to St.Paul or the authors of the Gospels.


    Again, that's extremely rich coming from you. You're the one who gives little weight to the dusty old book.

    Phat writes:

    The clear meaning of the scriptures clashes with Descartes "Age of Reason" philosophies.


    And you're the one who dismisses the clear meaning of the scriptures in favour of your self-serving interpretation, which you can't back up.

    Phat writes:

    Infallibility suggests arrogance. I would go more with certainty.


    Same thing. If you're certain that you're right but you have no rational basis for your conclusions, then you believe you're infallible. And that's arrogance.

    Phat writes:

    Scripture clearly tells us that a double minded man is unstable in all his ways.


    You should stop talking about what scripture "clearly says" because you reject scripture.

    In any case, "double minded" does not refer to being fixated on one conclusion with no rational basis.

    Phat writes:

    Your way suggests that were a man to employ your "doubt" in his life, he would likely second guess his proposals even to marriage...such that the girl would likely dump you.


    YES. Of course it does. "Cold feet" happen before almost every wedding. There would probably be fewer divorces if more people paid attention to the temperature of their feet.

    (If you want an example of somebody who thinks like you do, watch Bus Stop, starring Marilyn Monroe.)


    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 239 by Phat, posted 04-01-2021 3:05 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
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