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Author Topic:   Anti-theist
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16820
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 301 of 341 (885588)
04-19-2021 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Phat
04-19-2021 12:14 PM


Re: Unseen Battles
quote:
If we are talking spirit vs Spirit, the MMA fighter was obviously controlled by one, and it was not the Good One either!

No, we’re talking about imaginary powers versus fighting skills. The guy waves his hands at his pupils, they go flying. He waves his hands at an MMA fighter and nothing happens. Where do spirits come into it? They certainly aren’t obvious.


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Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 8119
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 302 of 341 (885589)
04-19-2021 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by PaulK
04-19-2021 1:02 PM


Re: Unseen Battles
quote:
No, we’re talking about imaginary powers versus fighting skills. The guy waves his hands at his pupils, they go flying. He waves his hands at an MMA fighter and nothing happens. Where do spirits come into it? They certainly aren’t obvious.

It's the faith healer/ demon extractor thing. Phat thinks it's impressive. It's all very easily explained by either fakery or the power of the human brain to believe something dumb really strongly.

The fighters believed - or were faking - that the MMA guy could knock them over without touching them. The fighter actually believed it too. So it all worked. But it all turned to shit when he met someone without that dumb belief.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 18994
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 303 of 341 (885590)
04-19-2021 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Phat
04-19-2021 11:09 AM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

The same way you can be so sure that Santa doesn't exist.


Nope. Not even close.

That's a non-response. HOW is there a difference?

Phat writes:

... the real issue is not that I need to be sure that demons exist.


Of course it is. How can you belive that Saldivar is casting out demons if you're not sure that demons exist?

Phat writes:

The REAL issue is whether or not Jesus Christ is alive today and the message that He has eternally told us we need to do.


On the contrary, that has NOTHING do do with whether or not Saldivar is casting out demons.

Phat writes:

Yes, I know that fraud is widespread.


So it is a viable alernative explanation.

Phat writes:

Its not too hard to choose your side now, is it?


There is nothing in what you have posted that would motivate anybody to choose your side. You've backed one liar after another, you can't even articulate their arguments, you repudiate the Bible, you mock evidence....

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 18994
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 304 of 341 (885591)
04-19-2021 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Phat
04-19-2021 11:13 AM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
Phat writes:

You keep making this same error lumping the Creator of ALL seen and unseen ino the same group as Leprechauns, Bigfoot's and Santa Claus.


It's not an error. You haven't even tried to show that it's an error. For Christ's sake, SHOW us what the difference is.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

yet you haven't been able to show us one honest one.(Apologist)


I myself hope to be that one.

How can you do that when you refuse to even discuss what they say?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Phat, posted 04-19-2021 11:13 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5698
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.9


(2)
Message 305 of 341 (885592)
04-19-2021 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Phat
04-19-2021 4:38 AM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
I dont lie simply to win an argument, if thats what you mean.

That has to do with being dishonest with other people. That's not what I mean when I ask if you are honest with yourself.

Self-deception is very easy to do. Are you sufficiently skeptical? This is where confirmation bias comes in, and we are all susceptible to it.

How do you know? Absence (of objective evidence) does not equal evidence of absence.

Absence of evidence is evidence of absence. Perhaps it is only weak evidence of absence. Or perhaps it is strong evidence of absence. That's something you have to evaluate yourself.

Are there demons? Maybe "demon" is just another name for mosquito. And in that case, there are demons. The real problem here is that we do not have a sufficiently clear definition of "demon" so we can't actually tell.

I look at it differently. People who claim to cast out demons say that they are solving a problem. Is the problem actually solved?

Sure, when someone is put on stage with an act of casting out demons, that can have a psychological effect, though that effect wears off after a while. Does casting out demons have more than a psychological effect? As far as I know, the scientific research all says "no" to that.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by Phat, posted 04-20-2021 5:21 AM nwr has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15245
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 306 of 341 (885598)
04-20-2021 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by nwr
04-19-2021 3:04 PM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
OK how do explain my experiences? Unless I am genuinely mentally ill or have some sort of chemical imbalance, I *think* I have a fairly good grip on m perceptions.

nwr writes:

Self-deception is very easy to do. Are you sufficiently skeptical? This is where confirmation bias comes in, and we are all susceptible to it.

What do you mean by sufficiently skeptical? Skeptical enough to be unbiased? My bias is based on my prior experiences and I don't want to simply falsify everything I experience. I always went by the motto that if you don't stand for something you will fall for anything.
I look at it differently..
And I appreciate that you do. Thats why we can have conversations.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by nwr, posted 04-19-2021 3:04 PM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by nwr, posted 04-20-2021 11:57 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 308 by dwise1, posted 04-20-2021 12:16 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 309 by Coragyps, posted 04-20-2021 1:13 PM Phat has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5698
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 307 of 341 (885603)
04-20-2021 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 306 by Phat
04-20-2021 5:21 AM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
I *think* I have a fairly good grip on m perceptions.

It is probably the other way around. Perception has a strong grip on you. Perception is very powerful.

What do you mean by sufficiently skeptical?

Back when I was a Christian, I would notice instances of good fortune and tell myself that it was God being good to me. But when there were instances of bad fortune, I rarely blamed God for that. I just took the bad fortune in stride.

After leaving Christianity, that continued to happen.

We all have instances of good fortune. Even Hitler had such instances. He would not have become Chancellor without them.

Our perception is very good a picking up instances of good fortune that we can use to our benefit. It pays far less attention to instances of bad fortune. This leads to a kind of confirmation bias. And that's where some skepticism is needed.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Phat, posted 04-20-2021 5:21 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4558
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 308 of 341 (885604)
04-20-2021 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Phat
04-20-2021 5:21 AM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
OK how do explain my experiences? Unless I am genuinely mentally ill or have some sort of chemical imbalance, I *think* I have a fairly good grip on m perceptions.

On NPR, 01 Apr 2021, Mice That Hear Imaginary Sounds May Help Explain Hallucinations In People:

quote:
A technique that induces imaginary sounds in both mice and people could help scientists understand the brain circuits involved in schizophrenia and other disorders that cause hallucinations.

The technique appears to offer "a way to study psychotic disorders in animals," says Adam Kepecs, a professor of neuroscience and psychiatry at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis.

It also shows how levels of the brain chemical dopamine determine the likelihood that a mouse or a person will perceive something that isn't really there, Kepecs and a team report in this week's issue of the journal Science.


In my personal experience, while in the hospital after major surgery I became irritated at that dog behind my bed that kept licking itself. It was actually the oxygen bubbling through water, but I could tell it was that d*mned dog!

You don't have to be full blown mentally ill or drugged up to have aural hallucinations. Just a minor transient dopamine imbalance could be enough.

Nor to misinterpret something that you actually almost hear. If you've been taught that such sounds would be demons, then you would hear demons.

 
OBTW, please note that I described what's in that link rather than to just post a bare link.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Phat, posted 04-20-2021 5:21 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5551
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 309 of 341 (885607)
04-20-2021 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Phat
04-20-2021 5:21 AM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
How would you explain an experience of mine? Back about 1969 I was riding around Bentonville, Arkansas with my friends. (That was the main activity for big kids in that place back then). We had already circled the Dairy-O, so we went out to the bowling alley instead of recircling. It was a weekend night, it was pretty weather, and I knew it would be really noisy in there. So I elected to sit in the car.
I sat for a while, watching the cars southbound on Highway 71 bypass drive by. They quit being just cars, though. They would get within a few hundred feet of where I was, and suddenly change into lions, jaguars, and tigers with glowing eyes, rushing down the road at breakneck speed! They would turn back into cars as soon as they passed. They made swooshing sounds, sort of like cars do, instead of growling. It was absolutely amazing and fascinating! This went on for quite a while. I was enthralled.

Do you think, Phat, that this could have been a demonic event? I never really considered that possibility: I felt more like it had to do with the LSD that I had swallowed earlier that evening. Hallucinations are funny, you know, and don’t have to involve ingested hallucinogens.

Edited by Coragyps, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Phat, posted 04-20-2021 5:21 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5814
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 310 of 341 (885617)
04-20-2021 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by Coragyps
04-20-2021 1:13 PM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
Oh, my. Phat was right. You did have a demon. You even have its name. Well, its initials, anyway.

Reminder. Today is 4/20. Which means there is another demon with three initials lurking in the dark recesses of human souls.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 15245
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 311 of 341 (885619)
04-20-2021 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by AZPaul3
04-20-2021 3:15 PM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
Pantheistic
Oblivious
Troll

P O T

Orrrrr
We could call "It" Peaceful Omnibenevolant Teacher

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by AZPaul3, posted 04-20-2021 3:15 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by AZPaul3, posted 04-20-2021 6:05 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5814
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 312 of 341 (885624)
04-20-2021 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by Phat
04-20-2021 3:54 PM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
Tetrahydrocannabinol, actually.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by Phat, posted 04-20-2021 3:54 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15245
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 313 of 341 (885638)
04-21-2021 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Coragyps
04-20-2021 1:13 PM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
Do you think, Phat, that this could have been a demonic event? I never really considered that possibility: I felt more like it had to do with the LSD that I had swallowed earlier that evening. Hallucinations are funny, you know, and don’t have to involve ingested hallucinogens.
Your story reminde me of a time and subsequent story of my own. We used to dabble with acid and psychedelic mushrooms a few times back in my twenties, and I am well aware of the effects of auditory and visual hallucinations as ell as the phenomenon of synesthesia (hearing colors and seeing sounds) which occasionally occurred. There were a couple of "trips" which were quite intense. One time I reflected on what had just happened to my brain for 12 hours straight. It was as if my entire concept of who I am and who I chose to be were challenged and perceived from new angles.

I recall that i tried to "plan" my trips and it never worked. Even crossing a street was difficult because I could no longer time the distance off the cars as they approached and whizzed past. The rules most definitely changed while tripping, at least from my perspective.

I sat for a while, watching the cars southbound on Highway 71 bypass drive by. They quit being just cars, though. They would get within a few hundred feet of where I was, and suddenly change into lions, jaguars, and tigers with glowing eyes, rushing down the road at breakneck speed! They would turn back into cars as soon as they passed. They made swooshing sounds, sort of like cars do, instead of growling. It was absolutely amazing and fascinating! This went on for quite a while. I was enthralled.
So if a person "thinks or imagines" that a car is a jaguar or lion, does that make the car that?
Not so far. But as has been said here before, I prefer fantasy over reality at times. I pretend that my fantasy (or hallucination) is reality at that moment...knowing in the other part of my head that the cars are still just cars.

With demons, I'm not sure how I think. I have only directly seen the human reaction to their own perception. And as of this writing, I have never had one cast out of me. To be honest, if I had one or more, I could'nt tell at this time.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Coragyps, posted 04-20-2021 1:13 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15245
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 314 of 341 (885642)
04-21-2021 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by AZPaul3
04-20-2021 3:15 PM


Long Strange Trips From Long Ago
We would go to concerts at Red Rocks. Everyone would take a psychedelic except perhaps the designated driver. While tripping, everyone else would see strange color trails, visual hallucinations, and amplified intensity of the concert experience.

Meanwhile, I would be "seeing" angels and demons battling it out on the mountain behind the stage.

Once I was tricked by another fan who stood on the railing in front of my seat before the show started...for hours. Once the show started, he stayed there and blocked my view. I told him he was in my seat. He told me that he too was in his seat. "No Way!I am sitting on my seat"I stammered..(a bench) He replied that he was "standing" on his seat...and the raw testosterone laden fight or flight emotions welled up in me! Normally, had I been sober or drunk, I likely would have knocked him into the seats.
I was, however, on acid, and the karma of those times (Grateful Dead Show) was all peace and love. Not quite like I later felt with the "Holy Spirit" but very close!

So, being filled with this strange dopamine & serotonin-charged energy, I began to dance and found myself loving it! I danced that whole show and even for days afterwards while at work.

The demons lost that day.

And I wasn't even "saved" at the time....or so I thought! .

Another sidenote: Different bands and musical genres brought with them different types of fans. At a thrash metal show, fighting was de rigueur while at Jethro Tull, cocaine was the exotic cocktail of the night. One time, I remember being at a Jethro Tull concert...3rd row from the stage. We sniffed a bit of coke and the adrenaline and positive energy was so keenly felt and experienced. I watched Ian Anderson on the stage in front of me. Suddenly, everyone in the whole arena took out their bic lighters to pay homage. Instantly in my brain a spiritual analogy was formed. (remember...this is before I was "saved" or indoctrinated by the apologists) The Bic Lighters represented what I now know as a relativistic secularized ripoff of the Holy Communion we celebrated in church. In church, the Light started with a lone candle from the Priest or Leader. He would light the candles of the ushers and they would go aisle by aisle lighting the candles of the parishioners. The symbolic Light of Jesus spread through the church through human contact. But at that moment so long ago when Ian Anderson pranched on the stage like a puppet master, every human in the arena took out their own "source" of light and shown it as a homage to the band. Likely few if any of them felt as if it was spiritual or symbolic, but I sure did. I was too high! But even in my time of inebriation with a stimulant, I felt that the lesson I found in my head was apt. True to this day. And I give Jesus...not the Cocaine credit for that enlightened insight.

Edited by Phat, : cleared up spelling and punctuation errors and elaborated a bit more

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by AZPaul3, posted 04-20-2021 3:15 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by dwise1, posted 04-25-2021 6:06 AM Phat has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5814
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 315 of 341 (885733)
04-25-2021 1:56 AM


The Secular 10 Commandments
Brothers and sisters, are you lost? Do you find no cosmic purpose to life? Do you feel helpless within yourself and are you seeking the comfort and guidance of a greater power?

Welcome to our Sundae Service.

If comfort and guidance are what you seek then you will find them in family, both the family you are given and the extended family you gather around you. The only purpose in this universe is the purpose you give it. If you have love to give then give it to family. They need it more than the ghost.

Today’s short homily has absolutely nothing to do with cosmic purpose. I was just rambling.

Please attend this missive from my favorite Horseman of the Apocalypse, Intellect, Christopher Hitchens.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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