Replace the word religion with Jesus in all of your rants and your argument falls apart.
Well, let's see.
quote:Jesus may have been a useful evolutionary step in the newly sentient mind of the primitive human, but it quickly become organized, a yoke of control over the minds and bodies of the population. Jesus is still used today to foment violence against the heathen who has impure thoughts or crosses himself the wrong way.
Jesus is violence. Jesus perpetrates evil in the world and is an excuse to perpetrate evil in the world.
No. Still works. Of course it would since jesus is a member in the original set religion. Logic works that way.
Quit fighting God.
But I'm not fighting god. I'm fighting the human stupidity, evil and violence that belief in such non-existent bullcrap inevitably creates.
Phat writes:
AZPaul3 writes:
belief forced by violence, both physical and mental.
No. The violence will come because secularism will be pushed as mandatory. Freedom of religion will never be successfully suppressed.
You don't have to worry about being burned at the stake, Phat. Humanists are nothing like your priests.
You and ringo do not get to define what judgements the thought police will enforce.
How about if he and I agree that the very concept of thought police is a time dishonored practice of religion itself and needs to stop?
atheism will never become the default option.
You can't change that, Phat. Before you fill the slate with bullshit the blank slate (atheism) is the default.
There will be wars if you people insist on it.
Where you been the last 5000 years? You religion monsters have been making war on humans non-stop. The only thing that has changed now is that you guys are starting to lose big time.
First of all, religion is not the main problem. Human behavior is.
Phat, religion is a form of human behavior. Like racism, religion is an ugly form of human behavior. Religion is an especially vile, exclusive, hate-filled and violent form of human behavior that needs to stop.
I will defend belief in Jesus, however, in that I believe strongly that He (in Communion with our mind) will help us better than humans simply in consensus with each other.
It's been 2000 years. If he's going to help he damn well better start now. We don't have all that much time left given our wonderful Christian stewardship of this planet.
No. Still works. Of course it would since Jesus is a member in the original set religion. Logic works that way.
And of course you see it that way because you only see Jesus as a character in a book. If the original set has always been a cultural meme, you would have a point.
AZ writes:
I'm not fighting god. I'm fighting the human stupidity, evil and violence that belief in such non-existent bull crap inevitably creates.
Oddly, you have a point. I'm still trying to figure out why what I am learning from atheists seems as if its cultural observation shown to me by God. I'll let you guys figure that one out!
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
You and ringo do not get to define what judgements the thought police will enforce.
Thought Police? It's YOUR side that puts belief before thought. You yourself have ridiculed thought in this very forum. You're afraid to think about the apologists' lies because it might challenge your precious beliefs. You don't need to worry about your thoughts being policed if you have no thoughts.
Phat writes:
I do not agree with your claim that Christianity causes oppression of mind and spirit. If anything, mind is renewed and spirit comes alive.
Then come alive and discuss the apologists' claims.
"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
And of course you see it that way because you only see Jesus as a character in a book.
Basics Phat.
Remember, if there was an actual living Jesus was almost certainly not named Jesus.
Jesus is a Greek name and a good Jewish boy would not be named Jesus. Maybe Joshua but far more likely Jehoshua.
Jesus is a creation of the different authors and again the evidence is found in the Gospel of John where the author creates a different Jesus than the Jesus found in the Synoptic Gospels.
quote:Don't bother. I have been a Cradle Creedal Christian since before you were born, just not a member of the Christian Cult of *********.
@jar: I feel the hate of the enemy in you my brother, but I also feel the seed of faith that will not be extinguished as well. I noticed you immediately fell back upon your abandoned Christian roots, with pride in length of service no less! ...before the enemy's lies and hate filled your reply. I love you brother, and I pray that you will one day feel the love and peace of Jesus in your life. I want to see you up there in heaven with me and everyone else one day. God bless you sir.
@jar: I feel the hate of the enemy in you my brother, but I also feel the seed of faith that will not be extinguished as well. I noticed you immediately fell back upon your abandoned Christian roots, with pride in length of service no less! ...before the enemy's lies and hate filled your reply. I love you brother, and I pray that you will one day feel the love and peace of Jesus in your life. I want to see you up there in heaven with me and everyone else one day. God bless you sir.
Too funny child but be assured that IF there is a heaven you and almost all other Christians will not be there while heaven will be filled with atheists and satanists and Buddhists and Taoists and agnostics and Hindus and Muslims.
Salvation is the great con sold to all the carny folk and denigration of all that Jesus taught.
And welcome to our Sundae Service. A Sundae Service to go with our Happy Sundae.
Yes, this is a Happy Sundae Sundae Service. Today’s Happy Sundae Sundae Service Sermon is another visit from a favored fighter.
The return of a Horsemen. The Archbishop of In-Your-Face Facts, Sam Harris.
This short piece (12 min) highlights a few of Dr. Harris’ points on religion which as you might well imagine may shock and disappoint some readers as these are postings of so many more pages of animosity toward religion. This is a montage from different talks thus all are cut to emphasize his points. A most fitting garment for one of the princes of the church.
There are a number of his vids in this series. We hope to bring forward each to add yet more pages of animosity toward religion in this thread.
His Eminence, the archbishop, will talk and will say things in this video about:
Defense of god Impotent or evil Wrong culture Incompatible claims Rapture and awe Venue for conversation Double standard
Why, you may ask.
Why such animosity toward what is just, after all, mere fairytale? How can such distain for the very concept of religious practice, religious belief, belief absent reality, how can such criticism of woo be maintained in our modern, trying to be more tolerant and open, society?
If you saw a great evil being done on the street would you not try to intervene?
“Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.” George Santayana
That's why.
Until next week, or not, depending, regardless, go make someone else happy today. No, not you. Make someone *else* happy. Even with something as simple as a smile and a hug. Ok, make yourself happy too. Go smile and hug someone. Maybe several someones.
Empirically it’s good for your blood pressure. Hey, pretty girl, can you help me with my blood pressure? The science allows it. The science insists on it.
You made me happy for a minute or two as I laughed at your humor.
Im not sure yet whether I'll let you get away with the excuse that religion has caused such great harm, but I get where you are coming from.
I'm glad you can make your opponents laugh before you attempt to slaughter our arguments. AZ Does It.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
I have been deficient in my performance. Looking over my production I find to my horror that I have been neglecting the emotional needs of one of our religious brethren. I have not provided Our Brother Phat his favorite Deity to deride in an embarrassing number of weeks for which I am not just embarrassed but also, well, embarrassed.
This week’s Happy Sundae Sundae Service Sermon assuages my sorry oversight only slightly. But, I’m a big boy, I’ll get over it.
Frankly, I don’t like the alien insemination thing. I prefer the original myth of the god-rape of an innocent young girl but with the embellishment of her being lustfully attended by the most erotic of divine fantasies dancing in her mind put there in each of their three sessions together to make up for all the fumbling and bumbling of an infinitely old man who’d never done this before.
On May 9, 1922, The International Astronomical Union formally adopt Annie Jump Cannon's stellar classification system, which, with only minor changes, is still used today. Annie Jump Cannon - Wikipedia
On May 9, 1922, The International Astronomical Union formally adopt Annie Jump Cannon's stellar classification system, which, with only minor changes, is still used today. Annie Jump Cannon - Wikipedia
Actually a valid segue from the topic of randy gods.
"Oh Be AFine Girl, Kiss Me." -- O B A F G K M
With some new exotic stellar classes -- R, N, S, W -- in my 1975 astronomy class we were taught to extend that mnemonic device with: "Right Now, Smack, Wow!.
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
What better place to have a theistic argument than in an anti theist topic! Mr. Deity can move aside for a moment as I unpack this one.
Historic Christianity ascribed to by the early church Fathers such as Clement Of Rome is derisively slandered by many as "Biblical Christianity" though if one looks closely one can see the real counterfeit religion which is known as Progressive Christianity , Emergent Christianity or Liberal Christianity.
Here is an excerpt from the introduction to the pamphlet known as The Ten Commandments Of Progressive Christianity:
quote:In 1923, J.Gresham Machen, then a professor at Princeton Seminary, wrote his classic text, Christianity and Liberalism. The book was a response to the rise of liberalism in the mainline denominations of his own day. Machen argued that the liberal understanding of Christianity was, in fact, not just a variant version of the faith, nor did it represent simply a different denominational perspective, but was an entirely different religion. Put simply, liberal Christianity is not Christianity.
As I read the reasoning presented, I saw a lot of our own arguments in the literature! Lets compare and contrast
First, the Ten Commandments Of Progressive Christianity: (These ten principles are actually drawn from Philip Gulley's book=,If the Church Were Christian: Rediscovering the Values of Jesus.
1) Jesus is a model for living more than an object of worship. Our very own jar has repeatedly hammered home the point that Jesus life(as an example) was more important than His death (Burial and Resurrection).
quote:When given the choice between worshiping Jesus (which requires that he is divine) and merely looking at Jesus as a good moral guide, liberals have always favored the latter.
2)Affirming People's Potential Is More Important Than Reminding Them Of Their Brokenness.
quote:The core issue in this second tenet is the issue of sin. Are people sinners? If so, how big of a deal is it? More than that,how important is it that people know they are sinners?(...) After one has jettisoned the doctrine of original sin, rejected the idea that we are therefore sinners in need of salvation, and denied that Jesus died on the cross for sins, what is left of historical, biblical Christianity? Not much. Indeed, Machen would argue that we are left with something that is not Christianity. It is something else altogether.
3) The Work of Reconciliation Should Be Valued over Making Judgements. On the surface, this one seems rational. Judge not lest ye be judged...and all that? Lets examine the arguments:
quote:Now we can begin by acknowledging that the goal here is commendable. Bringing reconciliation to broken human relationships is a fundamental biblical value. The Bible has much to say on topics like this.(Luke 17:4,Matthew 5:24,Acts 7:26 etc. Indeed,Gulley is correct that reconciliation between humans is an important as pect of Christianity. The problem though, is how Gulley (and many progressives) thinks that reconciliation is best achieved. And it is here that he takes a biblical value and puts a decidedly progressive/liberal spin on it. Reconciliation is best achieved,he argues, when the church is less concerned with "making judgements". If only the church would get rid of its "culture of judgement", stop offering "judgement and blame", and surrender its fondness for "black-and-white,either-or thinking"then it could better help people reconcile with one another. (...)But if these statements mean that the church should not be in the business of calling out people's behavior as sinful or wrong, then that is something very different.
jar has argued that "Original Sin" was nothing more than an evolved marketing tool. Original Sin was perhaps an original marketing tool, but sin and rebellion are intrinsic parts of human nature. We cant simply finagle science into excusing our behaviors.
quote:TO SAY WE CAN NEVER DECLARE A BEHAVIOR TO BE WRONG IS PROFOUNDLY UNBIBLICAL
TO SAY WE CAN NEVER DECLARE A BEHAVIOR TO BE WRONG IS ULTIMATELY SELF-DEFEATING.
TO SAY WE CAN NEVER DECLARE A BEHAVIOR TO BE WRONG IS INEVITABLE SELECTIVE.
4) Gracious Behavior Is More Important Than Right Belief--We argue this one a lot here at EvC. Of course my arguments never get off the ground because I cant even get many of my opponents to agree that Jesus should be worshiped rather than simply humanized and emulated. In the world of EvC there is no "right" belief.
quote:We certainly would agree that gracious behavior should characterize the church (though there may be disagreement about what exactly that entails)...The prioritization of behavior over theology sells well to our modern world because the general population already has the idea that people who care about theology are divisive, narrow, dogmatic,and even mean.(...)
Jesus never said that the problem with the Pharisees is that they are(were) too concerned with orthodoxy. The problem with the Pharisees was legalism and hypocrisy.
Moving on...
5) Inviting Questions Is More Valuable Than Supplying Answers--jar taught me this one, and I have grown a lot through its application.
quote:It's an effective strategy. Position yourself as humble and inquisitive, merely on a journey of discovery. Then position the other side as less-than-humble dispensers of rigid dogma. (and ridicule and laugh at them as jar does to me) After all..."You're just a well-meaning seeker;they're mean,entrenched know-it-alls. Brilliant.(...)many people are familiar with churches in which quick and rather unsatisfying answers to honest questions about the faith are in ready supply. In these contexts, faith questions are discouraged. Should they arise, the expectation is that you will accept the answer you've been given
( as I am doing by sharing these arguments )serious intellectual engagement is not an option. IF the progressive commandment above is designed merely to correct this kind of approach(then) point taken. But it would be a caricature to portray Christians (or Christianity) as a whole as anti-intellectual propaganda-dispensers.
Lets pause a moment before mentioning the next five.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
Re: The Ten Commandments Of Progressive Christianity
More to the point, few conservatives are Christians in the strict sense of the word.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
Re: The Ten Commandments Of Progressive Christianity
Phat writes:
In the world of EvC there is no "right" belief.
But there are clearly wrong beliefs - flat earth, creationism, etc. And your religious beliefs are pretty clearly wrong because they're self-servingly mafe up in your own head. You openly reject what Jesus said, so you have no business claiming to have the "right" view of Christianity.
"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
You made me happy for a minute or two as I laughed at your humor.
Mr. Deity can move aside for a moment as I unpack this one.
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