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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It has nothing to do with scholastic achievement. That would be an argument from authority.
Of course I expect that the lot of you are unimpressed with any scholastic achievement in a reformed theological seminary. Phat writes:
As I have told you before, I don't listen to commentators of any kind.
Perhaps you would listen to some simple guy like "Mr.Deity". Phat writes:
Is that any more ludicrous than the tenets that you believe to be absolute truth?
Brian Dalton is a former Mormon, or "Formon". He says that some contributing parts of his de-conversion are the tenet of Mormonism that God punishes people by darkening their skin... Phat writes:
And evidence contradicts various claims of the Bible. ... and the fact that evidence contradicts various claims of the Book of Mormon."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Between Kruger and Dalton there is the issue of efficacy.
Dalton is speaking of reality, the sacred TRVTH as revealed by the Universe herself, while Kruger is regurgitating a personal catechism and pulling emotional fantasy turds from his existential butt. Anyone, like Dalton, who calls a bunch of liars a bunch of liars deserves the respect of the truthful. Your Kruger character, not so much. Reality is a big determinant of TRVTH. Actually, it's the only determinant. Mr. Deity is way more credible than any christianity, progressive or otherwise.Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Happy Sundae again EvC.
Well, I guess if you’re in Gaza it’s not such a happy sundae. Wish we could do something for you poor brown people but we’re mostly Americans and Europeans here and we have enough moral issues with the treatment of our own poor brown folks to be caring all that much what the Chosen People's religion-based racist society is doing to theirs. Sometimes you just gotta hate humanity’s hate for humanity. But, anyway, this *is* Sundae and we *will* be Happy. So, welcome to the Happy Sundae Sundae Service where I get to highlight some of my favorite bash artists against religion. Think of bash artists acting for anti-theists like apologists act for religionists except the bash artist wields reality as her/his/its weapon. After a few weeks of pleasant diversions we have returned home to my original schedule which is lost in one of these .docx files somewhere but I’m pretty sure it involved getting to bash some more on that most dangerous and most evil of human intellectual conceptions – religion. (Cue hiss/boo, thunder/lightning, fingernails dragging on chalkboards, bloody screaming) This is Sam Harris, again. I’ll use him often these next few weeks, maybe. So many rate him harsh, as intolerant. Intolerant of what? Facts? Within an intellectual quibble or two I am hard pressed to find any fault in any facts he presents here or there. I have a few more Harris vids to go so we’ll see. OK, you know I’ve already seen them, as have many of you, and his facts are not an issue. Where Dr. H really gets into trouble is when he logically extends those facts (a specific āyāt in the Qur'an for example) to the real world and what it actually means. Not interpretation of creed but logical extension of the reality involved. Speaking in "reality" is just so hateful and intolerant. Reality won’t even let you hide your religious hatreds anymore. That’s how intolerant reality has become. In this dose of intolerant reality: What if Islam is TRVTH©?Lack of Biblical efficacy. Eucharist for Elvis. Religion shatters moral communities. If Jesus had been killed twenty years ago, Catholic school children would be wearing little electric chairs around their necks instead of crosses. - Lenny Bruce Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I'm hoping that your wiseguy comment regarding truth being revealed by a "sacred universe" is tongue-in-cheek. Otherwise I will be forced to label you as one of *them* who worship the creation and ignore the Creator.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Phat, I didn't say that.
Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
How many times a day do you bow down to Henry Ford or Thomas Edison? Otherwise I will be forced to label you as one of *them* who worship the creation and ignore the Creator."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Humans can't create. All that we do is recreate (or reassemble) that which has already been created. There is no new knowledge under the Sun (or Son, if you prefer)
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
my mistake.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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anglagard Member (Idle past 857 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
Phat writes: I'm hoping that your wiseguy comment regarding truth being revealed by a "sacred universe" is tongue-in-cheek. Otherwise I will be forced to label you as one of *them* who worship the creation and ignore the Creator. So says the "Christian" who ignores Christ.The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing. If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do. Republican = death
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Touche! But I never really ignore Him. I hear Him in my conscience. I just get mad when people who dont even believe He is alive insist that I listen to a character in a book. It seems like a fellow student trying to teach the class.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5946 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5
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It seems like a fellow student trying to teach the class. All it takes is for that fellow student to know just a little more than you do. One of my junior high teachers told us about a famous imposter. I think that might have been Ferdinand Waldo Demara whom Tony Curtis played in The Great Imposter (1961), which was based on Demara's biography. We were told that his easiest role to assume was that of a college professor. All he had to do was to read the textbook a couple chapters ahead of the class. I think that was the same teacher who introduced us to Tom Lehrer and to Bob Newhart. Retired Navy chief. I still can't remember what the subject was (had to have been in 1964 or 1965, since That Was the Year That Was came out around then.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's a copout. You're trying to redefine "create".
Humans can't create. Phat writes:
Irrelevant. Creation ex nihilo is a made-up concept. All that we do is recreate (or reassemble) that which has already been created. Your claim was that the creator is more important than the creation, which is as silly as your claim that the messenger is more important than the message. You know those things are not true, so why do you keep repeating them?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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Rambling time!
My comments included.Also - I do not intend my comments to create a list of my own Commandments. Although, they might work as a "beginning" for such a list. The problem with such lists is that they have to end. Does trying to be a good person ever end? I don't think it does. Anyway - on to the rambling!
1) Jesus is a model for living more than an object of worship. I think the model for living should be "Love."If Jesus follows that... then follow Jesus. When Jesus does not... then don't follow Jesus. If Jesus always follows Love... then following Love will result in always following Jesus. Commandment #1: Follow Love. 2) Affirming People's Potential Is More Important Than Reminding Them Of Their Brokenness. This seems very contextual.I wouldn't make it a Commandment. May work great when on the subway chatting with strangers. But following this all the time, with close friends who might want to review Their Brokenness in order to heal, will result in a failure of being a friend. 3) The Work of Reconciliation Should Be Valued over Making Judgements. I don't see the problem with judging.People judge things. All the time. Quite possibly without ever ceasing to judge things - EVER. If people are telling you "you judge too much!" it's not really the judging - it's focusing on negative judgements and professing them too much. Reconciliation, again, is a judgement... just focusing on a positive judgement. Of course, there are times when poor behaviours should be judged negatively, and professed as such. I would re-word this to "Focus on positive judgements, not negative judgements when possible."...which may be too wishy-washy to be a "Commandment" anyway. 4) Gracious Behavior Is More Important Than Right Belief I like this one. But the word-choice irks me. Seems so... churchy.I would reword as: "Thinking the right thing is important, but doing the right thing is much more important." And, of course, the "right thing" is defined by the people your actions affect. You don't get to define your own actions into "good things." At best, you can define yourself into "trying to do" the right thing. I would make that another Commandment, it's really important. Then again, perhaps it already is. To me, this is a part of "Following Love" (Commandment #1) 5) Inviting Questions Is More Valuable Than Supplying Answers Eh. I think (out of context) - this one is too vague to be helpful.There are plenty of times where supplying answers is much more valuable than "inviting questions" for this to be a Commandment. I would focus on two separate ideas: "Don't be a Know-it-all" and "Questions should always be welcomed." With the latter being a Commandment. Of course, repeated-identical questions are to be avoided... but Questions are important. It's simply a matter of communication. There are two sides to Questions: 1 - Questions can always be asked, and no one can/should ever get mad at a question. 2 - Questions need to be questions, and not demands. That is, if you ask an actual Question, you need to be prepared for the answer to be "no" or "I don't want to answer that" just as much as you'd like the answer to be "yes" or to get the information you requested - otherwise, it's merely a demand-with-a-question-mark-tacked-on-the-end. People are justified at getting mad at "questions" that are actually demands. 6) Encouraging the Personal Search Is More Important Than Group Uniformity Eh. Too contextual for me to make it into a Commandment. I would get rid of this one altogether.Sometimes people should focus on themselves. Sometimes people should focus on the team/group/society. Pick your battles wisely. 7) Meeting Actual Needs Is More Important Than Maintaining Institutions Very good advice.Maybe I'd reword into something like "Meeting Actual Needs Is More Important Than Maintaining Tradition" Just to be clear about what it should be focusing on. 8) Peacemaking Is More Important Than Power Okay.Should be obvious by Following Love as per Commandment 1, though. 9) We Should Care More about Love and Less about Sex This one should be right out.People should care more about whatever-the-hell-they-want-to-care-more-about. No one should ever tell someone else what they should and should not be caring about or feeling. That being said - If what-you-care-about causes harm to others... see Commandment 1, and everyone/anyone is justified in calling you out on it. 10) Life in This World Is More Important Than the Afterlife Is it? What is life like in the Afterlife? Does the Afterlife even exist?I would just take this one out. It doesn't seem to add anything to the list (Commandment #1 - Follow Love - Covers a lot on how one should be living...) and there seems to be too many questions about the Afterlife that we don't know to be making this some sort of Commandment. And, with that said - I'm out!
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5946 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5
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A few comments on a few of your comments. Or procrastinating again.
Also, as I recall Phat was criticizing these "Commandments".
Phat writes:
I think the model for living should be "Love." 1) Jesus is a model for living more than an object of worship.. . . Commandment #1: Follow Love. My take is that Jesus was supposed to be the Great Teacher and is viewed as such in some religions (eg, Islam, Unitarian Universalism). If all you do is to worship and praise a teacher but never try to learn his teachings, let alone trying to apply them, then you are wasting that teacher. Indeed, such actions do far more to show your disdain for that teacher than any kind of respect or praise you would fake. When I read through the New Testament (twice beginning to end, not including going back to check some verses in the original Koiné Greek), my impression was that it was divided into two distinct and distinctly different parts: The Gospels which are about the teachings of Jesus, and the rest which was about the creation of The Christ quite detached from the teachings of Jesus. I see that dichotomy in the New Testament as applying to this first "Commandment."
Phat writes:
... 2) Affirming People's Potential Is More Important Than Reminding Them Of Their Brokenness. Christian theology, especially fundamentalist theology, is obsessed with Original Sin, that just by how we were procreated into existence we are all already damned and our only salvation is Jesus. That was a key aspect of "DivorceCare" (which I was hoodwinked into attending during my own divorce): paraphrasing "You have been broken by your divorce. There is nothing you can do to fix yourselves. Only Jesus can ever fix you!" So then what, because I'm not a Chrisitian then I'm screwed (and not even remotely in anything resembling a nice way)? That kind of teaching is far worse than useless, but rather is actually destructive. To bring it down several notches, you come upon somebody who has just been in some kind of accident or similar dire situation. So you stand there doing nothing but telling them how screwed they are, but you never even begin to try to help them in any meaningful way (telling them everything they had done wrong which got them into this situation is not helping). Maybe this is just a "guy thing", but offering possible solutions or even lending a hand goes a lot further than just telling them "told ya so!" Maybe this video doesn't really apply, but then you are rambling so I'm taking my cue from you. Besides, this is a good one. The Faustian "I of Newton" from the Twilight Zone reboot (aired 13 Dec 1985). Always loved Ron Glass' patter in it (Shepard Book is sorely missed!). Pay attention to his t-shirt which changes its caption a number of times.
Phat writes:
... 3) The Work of Reconciliation Should Be Valued over Making Judgements. Remember the "The Simpsons" episode which spoofed the classic Hitchcock movie, "Rear Window"? Bart thought the Ned Flanders had killed his wife, Maude, who was mysteriously missing. Turns out that she had been attending a special Christian camp because she wasn't being judgmental enough. So the context was one of being judgmental in order to shun someone you disapprove of (usually without even knowing them), whereas reconciliation is trying to find ways to resolve your differences.
Phat writes:
Eh. I think (out of context) - this one is too vague to be helpful. 5) Inviting Questions Is More Valuable Than Supplying Answers This one spoke to my religious background (UU):
quote: quote: quote: In my time here, I've tried to promote that idea. If you're just handed "answers" which you accept without question nor any thought, then that's no better than ID's "goddidit" nonsense. You learn nothing. Your spiritual growth has halted and has started dying. Also, since our fallible human nature is such that we will get almost everything wrong in some manner (most especially in absolute matters such as in religion), then it is most imperative that we constantly question and test our conclusions. For the religious, that has the additional benefit of keeping mindful of their beliefs and of working through those religious questions. Plus there's the added bonus of realizing that you had gotten something wrong so now you can correct it. I've mentioned a book about how most adults have childish ideas about God because they had formed those ideas as children and had never returned to them to update them.
Phat writes:
... 9) We Should Care More about Love and Less about Sex I've always found the final line of the medley on Side Two of the Abbey Road album to be ambiguous:
quote: Of course, it doesn't help that the English word, "love", is so ambiguous. It is famously said that Greek had 4 words for "love" (and Inuit had a hundred words for "snow"). I started college as a foreign language major, migrating to computer science (at first, pretty much the same thing except I was no longer learning human languages -- tlhIngan Hol didn't count since it had not yet been invented in the late 1970's). I sure wish I had the resources of the Internet and Netflix back then. One of the early problems I encountered was that the dictionary was not our friend. And English word can have so many different meanings, so in translating to another language which of the dozen foreign words do I choose? As I became more proficient in German, I started collecting dictionaries between German and those other languages; my friend nearly took my arm off in Lugano when I wanted to go into the first bookstore we had seen in more than a week in order to get a Tedesco-Italiano (German-Italian) dictionary. Case in point. I used to participate on a C Programming forum (no longer exists) where we would get questions from all over the world -- the most indecipherable and unreadable posts were by native English speakers, whereas most of the non-native speakers were readable in spite of the word choice and word order sometimes getting a bit wonky. But then one day a programmer from Portugal asked us how to use lights in multithreaded programming. Nobody had any clue what he was asking. But being sufficiently familiar with Spanish, I thought I might have a solution: multithreading like multiprocessing (more a UNIX/Linux thing) use semaphores for the separate processes/threads to signal that they were using common resources so everybody else "keep your hands off!". In Spanish, a traffic signal is a "semáforo" so I went to Wikipedia and looked up traffic signals and then went to the Portuguese version of that page and saw that it's the same word in Portuguese as it is in Spanish. He had looked up semáforo in his Portuguese-English dictionary and chose the American word for traffic lights, "lights" (eg, "Go straight and then turn right at the third light."). To him I added that the dictionary is not his friend. Now for all members and lurkers (4 members, 52 visitors (AKA "lurkers") at this moment), if you work in multiple languages then you should be fully aware that every topic and occupation has its own specialized vocabulary which is normally not accommodated in any dictionary you would commonly buy (eg, from a used bookstore I have an old French-English Medical dictionary). So go to Wikipedia and look up the subject of interest in your own language. Then switch to your target language. The text should then provide you with the specialized vocabulary you will need to communicate with others about that subject in that language. And to think that we had been operating for centuries without these tools!
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Raphael Member (Idle past 483 days) Posts: 173 From: Southern California, United States Joined:
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Hola friends
AZPaul3 writes: This is Sam Harris, again. I’ll use him often these next few weeks, maybe. I am currently working on a response/rebuttal to this video you shared AzPaul, the goal is to synthesize each of the main arguments he makes here and respond to each, though I fear summer classes have now begun so it wont be as thorough as I wish. He makes some good points, and some pretty bad ones too lol. At any rate, this is a placeholder for now! Till then, -Raph
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