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Author Topic:   Anti-theist
Phat
Member
Posts: 15361
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 436 of 464 (886697)
05-31-2021 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 435 by Tangle
05-31-2021 4:28 PM


Re: Context
Why does a god need time to scrub anything?
He does not. The Living Stones (us) need time. Even now we are being scrubbed through what we go through every day. I suppose one can go fishing and forget about all this superstitious non-sequiter, but they would then cease to be a Living Stone and would simply become a Rolling Stone.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 435 by Tangle, posted 05-31-2021 4:28 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 437 by Tangle, posted 05-31-2021 5:05 PM Phat has responded
 Message 439 by ringo, posted 05-31-2021 6:35 PM Phat has responded
 Message 440 by Percy, posted 06-01-2021 8:46 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8149
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 437 of 464 (886699)
05-31-2021 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 436 by Phat
05-31-2021 4:56 PM


Re: Context
Phat writes:

The Living Stones (us) need time. Even now we are being scrubbed through what we go through every day.

I really don't know what to say...you're just beyond reason.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by Phat, posted 05-31-2021 4:56 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 443 by Phat, posted 06-01-2021 10:34 AM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19061
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 438 of 464 (886702)
05-31-2021 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 434 by Phat
05-31-2021 3:38 PM


Re: Context
Phat writes:

I have arrived at an apologetic answer. I hope it satisfies the question.


First, why are you doing apologetics for SDA doctrines?

Second, the doctrine itself is beyond stupid. Jesus has already returned but he isn't here?

Third, your "living stones" idea makes no sense. 1 Peter's living stones are the good ones, not the ones that need cleansing.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 434 by Phat, posted 05-31-2021 3:38 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19061
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 439 of 464 (886703)
05-31-2021 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 436 by Phat
05-31-2021 4:56 PM


Re: Context
Phat writes:

Tangle writes:

Why does a god need time to scrub anything?


He does not. The Living Stones (us) need time.

You contradict yourself. If the scrubbEE needs time to be scrubbed, then the scrubbER necessarily needs time to do the scrubbing. And that is not very godlike.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by Phat, posted 05-31-2021 4:56 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 442 by Phat, posted 06-01-2021 10:32 AM ringo has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20101
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 440 of 464 (886710)
06-01-2021 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 436 by Phat
05-31-2021 4:56 PM


Re: Context
Are you doing free association?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by Phat, posted 05-31-2021 4:56 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 441 by Phat, posted 06-01-2021 10:25 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15361
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 441 of 464 (886711)
06-01-2021 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 440 by Percy
06-01-2021 8:46 AM


Re: Context
Percy writes:

Are you doing free association?

Maybe. Temples and Stones are synonymous. Jesus was mentioned as the Chief Cornerstone.

Ephesians 2:19-20 writes:

A Temple in the Lord
19Therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of God’s household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. 21In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord.…


Acts 17:24 NIV writes:

"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands.

As for why it "takes time" for this "Temple" to be cleansed I can only randomly speculate. (Winging it). I don't usually do serious nor scholarly Bible Studies. If a subject feels right to me, I go with it, as any good apologist would do. People (the future Living Stones) take time to be cleansed...if they in fact are not mere zombies or robots controlled by God but are free willed and thinking beings who are works in progress. Remember that we consider scripture to be divinely inspired, or in my mind intuitive. I'm curious to hear Raphael's explanation of Ellen White and of her wording on the matter.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by Percy, posted 06-01-2021 8:46 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15361
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 442 of 464 (886714)
06-01-2021 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 439 by ringo
05-31-2021 6:35 PM


Stone Temple Pilots
If the scrubbEE needs time to be scrubbed, then the scrubbER necessarily needs time to do the scrubbing. And that is not very godlike.
On the contrary it is extremely godlike, provided that you choose the right one. Loki couldn't handle the assignment. Look at how God works on you. You don't even believe that He exists, yet He has impressed upon your heart the truths found in His message. Next, He sends you some bozo like me whom you have to argue with in order to drive home your chosen belief in the validity of the word. In this way, without controlling either one of us, He has initiated understanding and a yearning for clarity in our daily behavior. Two stones of the Temple are thus being cleansed.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by ringo, posted 05-31-2021 6:35 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 446 by ringo, posted 06-01-2021 12:11 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15361
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 443 of 464 (886715)
06-01-2021 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 437 by Tangle
05-31-2021 5:05 PM


Re: Context
Tangle writes:

I really don't know what to say...you're just beyond reason.

Perhaps your understanding needs to grow. Perhaps you need to question your secular reasoning and consider allegory and parables as possible clues to insight.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by Tangle, posted 05-31-2021 5:05 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 444 by Percy, posted 06-01-2021 10:50 AM Phat has responded
 Message 445 by Tangle, posted 06-01-2021 11:26 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20101
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 444 of 464 (886717)
06-01-2021 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 443 by Phat
06-01-2021 10:34 AM


Re: Context
Phat writes:

Tangle writes:

I really don't know what to say...you're just beyond reason.

Perhaps your understanding needs to grow. Perhaps you need to question your secular reasoning and consider allegory and parables as possible clues to insight.

Why are you responding in a way that only reinforces Tangle's point? You're not coming across as someone one can have a rational discussion with right now.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by Phat, posted 06-01-2021 10:34 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 449 by Phat, posted 06-02-2021 3:40 AM Percy has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8149
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 445 of 464 (886720)
06-01-2021 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 443 by Phat
06-01-2021 10:34 AM


Re: Context
Phat writes:

Perhaps your understanding needs to grow. Perhaps you need to question your secular reasoning and consider allegory and parables as possible clues to insight.

I'm fine with parables and allegory; they're all part of good story making. What I'm not fine about is you believing that your works of pure fantasy are insights into some kind of 'truth.'


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by Phat, posted 06-01-2021 10:34 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19061
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 446 of 464 (886721)
06-01-2021 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 442 by Phat
06-01-2021 10:32 AM


Re: Stone Temple Pilots
Phat writes:

On the contrary it is extremely godlike, provided that you choose the right one.


Haven't you told us that God is "outside of time"? Then how can He take time to do anything?

Phat writes:

Loki couldn't handle the assignment.


Since Loki isn't outside of time, he might take a little longer.

Phat writes:

Look at how God works on you. You don't even believe that He exists, yet He has impressed upon your heart the truths found in His message.


No. The message makes sense. It is impressed on most people's hearts, no matter which god they believe in. Your bills are the same, no matter who delivers them. Clearly, no god is necessary for people to understand the message.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 442 by Phat, posted 06-01-2021 10:32 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2305
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 447 of 464 (886726)
06-02-2021 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 405 by PaulK
05-27-2021 1:06 AM


Re: The Knowledge of Jesus is Available to All
PaulK writes:

Let us also note that this is no indication of Jesus making any impression at all on the author.

I am curious, at what point in Roman history do you think Christ/Christianity actually made any impression on the Romans? I say Claudius and Nero which appears to be unacceptable. Can we go with Decius? Diocletian? Constantine? Theodoric? (be careful, I have direct physical and empirical evidence the latter did acknowledge the existence of Christianity, through coinage). So, the question remains, do you think the Romans noticed Christianity was a thing prior to Constantine? Or did it come from nowhere and the Romans were too stupid to notice?

In addition, while Josephus clearly has some later Christian monk insertions, and Suetonius has also come under similar (but less common and apparently less valid charges,) this is the first time I ever heard of anyone ever accusing Tacitus of bearing false witness.

Generally, scholarship in history means one is allowed to speak of a person they never personally met, which seems to be PaulK's standard for existence, Hey, you kids in grammar school, because you did not personally meet Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, or Lincoln you don't personally know they ever existed, therefore you are not allowed to comment on anything they supposedly did.

Idiotic and desperate.

The consensus of historical scholarship remains on my side. Further whining about not winning means nothing to us.

I am also done with you concerning further conversation on this matter, so whine all you want behind my back, one of us must be the adult.

Edited by anglagard, : Convert to to too.


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by PaulK, posted 05-27-2021 1:06 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 448 by PaulK, posted 06-02-2021 1:45 AM anglagard has not yet responded
 Message 454 by dwise1, posted 06-02-2021 1:07 PM anglagard has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16857
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 448 of 464 (886727)
06-02-2021 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 447 by anglagard
06-02-2021 1:10 AM


Re: The Knowledge of Jesus is Available to All
quote:
I am curious, at what point in Roman history do you think Christ/Christianity actually made any impression on the Romans? I say Claudius and Nero which appears to be unacceptable.

And again you get it wrong. Your assertion was that Jesus personally had an impact on the authors. Naturally anything less is going to be unacceptable as an example.

If you are going to try to demonstrate that Jesus existed because of the inpact he had on classical writers. You need to show that Jesus had an impact. That really shouldn’t be controversial. The impact of later Christians who never knew or met or even saw Jesus from a distance is certainly not the same thing.

quote:
In addition, while Josephus clearly has some later Christian monk insertions, and Suetonius has also come under similar (but less common and apparently less valid charges,) this is the first time I ever heard of anyone ever accusing Tacitus of bearing false witness.

You haven’t heard it here, either.

quote:
Generally, scholarship in history means one is allowed to speak of a person they never personally met, which seems to be PaulK's standard for existence, Hey, you kids in grammar school, because you did not personally meet Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, or Lincoln you don't personally know they ever existed, therefore you are not allowed to comment on anything they supposedly did.

Again the question is whether Jesus had the impact you claim he had. The fact that you are grossly moving the goalposts does not indicate that I am being unreasonable at all.

I am sorry that you feel the need to resort such dishonest nastiness rather than admitting that you were wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by anglagard, posted 06-02-2021 1:10 AM anglagard has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15361
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 449 of 464 (886728)
06-02-2021 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 444 by Percy
06-01-2021 10:50 AM


Re: Context
Percy writes:

Why are you responding in a way that only reinforces Tangle's point? You're not coming across as someone one can have a rational discussion with right now.

Why must all of you be doubters by nature?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by Percy, posted 06-01-2021 10:50 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 450 by Tangle, posted 06-02-2021 3:57 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 451 by anglagard, posted 06-02-2021 5:13 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 452 by Percy, posted 06-02-2021 7:00 AM Phat has responded
 Message 453 by ringo, posted 06-02-2021 12:10 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 456 by dwise1, posted 06-02-2021 1:47 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8149
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 450 of 464 (886729)
06-02-2021 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 449 by Phat
06-02-2021 3:40 AM


Re: Context
Phat writes:

Why must all of you be doubters by nature?

Why don't you understand that when you say something as weird, fanatical and just downright daft as "Perhaps a Heavenly Temple would be made up of Living Stones, with Jesus being the "chief cornerstone." ... that would take 1,000 years to cleanse - the bullshit meter hits 11?

We're not doubters, we're just not insane.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by Phat, posted 06-02-2021 3:40 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
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