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Author Topic:   Anti-theist
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16733
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 106 of 169 (884402)
02-16-2021 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
02-15-2021 8:57 PM


Re: Freedom of Speech vs Harmful Speech
That’s really not very honest of Craig.

First, why would it be necessary to have absolute proof? If the argument is merely very strong it still needs a better answer.

Second, God is supposedly only limited to what is logical possible. When Craig claims that it may be possible that bringing the maximum of people freely into God’s Kingdom requires this amount of suffering he is making a claim that it is logically impossible for that to be accomplished with less. Now that is a highly implausible claim - and theologically problematic for many Christians. But he doesn’t offer anything more than speculation.

So it’s more desperate clutching at straws than anything. Implicit in it is the fact that the argument from evil is almost certainly correct.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 02-15-2021 8:57 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 02-16-2021 10:55 AM PaulK has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14955
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 107 of 169 (884405)
02-16-2021 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by PaulK
02-16-2021 12:32 AM


The Problem Of Evil
PaulK writes:

Implicit in it is the fact that the argument from evil is almost certainly correct.

Not necessarily.

the argument from evil broken down by Australian Philosopher John Mackie. Note Mackies line of reasoning.

quote:
Mackie is claiming that the following three propositions cannot all be true:
    God is omnipotent.
    God is wholly good
    Some evil exists.

Go to the link and read Mackies full argument. It is fascinating.

He concludes with this:

quote:
if God has made men such that in their free choices they sometimes prefer what is good and sometimes what is evil, why could he not have made men such that they always freely choose the good? If there is no logical impossibility in a man's freely choosing the good on one, or several occasions, there cannot be a logical impossibility in his freely choosing the good on every occasion. God was not, then, faced with a choice between making innocent automata and making beings who, in acting freely, would sometimes go wrong: there was open to him the obviously better possibility of making beings who would act freely but always go right.

In that same Notre Dame philosophy course are several more questions to chew on.

quote:
1.Explain Leibnizʼs cosmological argument. Should the proponent of the argument say that the fact that God created contingent things is itself contingent, or necessary? Is the argument in the end a good argument for the existence of God? Why or why not?

2.Explain Humeʼs argument against the possibility of justified belief in God on the basis of testimony about miracles, and some of the problems we discussed with that argument. Do your best to reconstruct Humeʼs argument in such a way that it avoids those objections

.3.Explain the fine-tuning argument for the existence of God, along with some of the objections discussed in class. Is the argument convincing? Would it change matters if we had good reason to believe in the existence of multiple universes? Does the improbability of the universeʼs being life-supporting give us good reason to believe in multiple universes?

4.Explain why the following sort of case (the case of “Roweʼs fawn”) poses a challenge for the believer in an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God:"“... in some distant forest lightning strikes a dead tree, resulting in a forest fire. In the fire a fawn is trapped, horribly burned, and lies in terrible agony for several days before death relieves its suffering ...”How should a traditional theist explain this sort of event? Does it provide good evidence that God does not exist? Why or why not?


Edited by Phat, : structure


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by PaulK, posted 02-16-2021 12:32 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2021 11:07 AM Phat has responded
 Message 109 by PaulK, posted 02-16-2021 11:56 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 108 of 169 (884407)
02-16-2021 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
02-16-2021 10:55 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Why is it necessary to have any concept at all of right and wrong in a god made world? Without the concept of wrong, there's no concept of right. And vice-versa. Everybody just gets along.

God seemed perfectly able to do it in Eden and presumably heaven.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 02-16-2021 10:55 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Phat, posted 02-16-2021 3:08 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16733
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 109 of 169 (884409)
02-16-2021 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
02-16-2021 10:55 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
quote:
Not necessarily

I disagree. If the defence is “you don’t have absolute proof and there’s a highly implausible way you could be wrong” then it’s implicit that you are almost certainly correct. If you don’t accept that then you ought to give some reason why.

quote:
the argument from evil broken down by Australian Philosopher John Mackie. Note Mackies line of reasoning.

Craig seems to be asserting that he isn’t familiar with Mackie’s argument. He certainly doesn’t address it

Oh by the way I have some familiarity with Mackie’s work. I even own a copy of The Miracle of Theism and have referenced it here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 02-16-2021 10:55 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 02-16-2021 3:04 PM PaulK has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14955
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 110 of 169 (884412)
02-16-2021 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by PaulK
02-16-2021 11:56 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
I googled The Miracle Of Theism and noted the expensive price which it is selling for. I may have to take a trip to the Library to study this book, though I gleaned a lot just by reading the introduction.

Digging further, I was disappointed to learn that Mackey was an atheist, though I did note his argument from evil had been refuted, successfully according to him, by a man named Alvin Plantingas Free Will Defense

Mackey is worthy of further study as he seems to intelligently present some deep well thought out arguments.

On a random note, I do not believe that the most intelligent arguments are brought out by atheists, though there are far fewer Christians who are intelligent enough to engage in such philosophical discussions.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by PaulK, posted 02-16-2021 11:56 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by PaulK, posted 02-16-2021 3:15 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14955
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 111 of 169 (884413)
02-16-2021 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Tangle
02-16-2021 11:07 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
True, though you rely on several presumptions.
1) That God does not exist apart from a human-centric character. The Bible explains the origin of right and wrong via the Tree of Knowledge.

2) That humans are by nature good. (Good would have to be further defined)

3) That there is no spiritual (supernatural) realm. This is, of course speculative and is assumed based (pro or con) on what we humans know (through experience) and what we want to be true.

God seemed perfectly able to do it in Eden and presumably heaven.
Both Eden and Heaven also had a villain.Eden had the serpent and heaven had the angelic war. You fail to mention those realities in your perfect God scenario.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2021 11:07 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16733
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 112 of 169 (884414)
02-16-2021 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
02-16-2021 3:04 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
quote:
I googled The Miracle Of Theism and noted the expensive price which it is selling for. I may have to take a trip to the Library to study this book, though I gleaned a lot just by reading the introduction.

The copy I have was quite cheap. It may still be readable on scribd, for free.

quote:
Digging further, I was disappointed to learn that Mackey was an atheist, though I did note his argument from evil had been refuted, successfully according to him, by a man named Alvin Plantingas Free Will Defense

Plantinga - who has contributed quite a lot of sophistry to the debate only managed to refute the Problem of Evil as a logical proof (and I regard the Free Will Defence as a failure even in that regard). I don’t consider that much of an achievement - and it leaves the evidential argument untouched.

quote:
Mackey is worthy of further study as he seems to intelligently present some deep well thought out arguments.

Mackie’s book is regarded as a classic, in my view rightly so.

quote:
On a random note, I do not believe that the most intelligent arguments are brought out by atheists, though there are far fewer Christians who are intelligent enough to engage in such philosophical discussions.

I’m not so sure, I’m not greatly impressed by Plantinga or Craig, and if there are better theistic arguments, where are they?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 02-16-2021 3:04 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 02-19-2021 10:03 PM PaulK has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14955
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 113 of 169 (884448)
02-19-2021 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by PaulK
02-16-2021 3:15 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
PaulK writes:

I’m not greatly impressed by Plantinga or Craig, and if there are better theistic arguments, where are they?

John 10:25-30 writes:

Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."
(from New International Version)


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by PaulK, posted 02-16-2021 3:15 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by PaulK, posted 02-20-2021 3:14 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16733
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 114 of 169 (884449)
02-20-2021 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Phat
02-19-2021 10:03 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
I note that your quote offers no real answer. Instead it undermines Craig’s answer. Jesus’ flock do not need suffering to be brought freely into the Kingdom.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 02-19-2021 10:03 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 115 of 169 (884450)
02-20-2021 3:23 AM


The thinking goes

God made everything
We've got suffering
Therefore suffering is necessary
We now need to make up a reason why the daft bastard did it this way.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by vimesey, posted 02-20-2021 4:05 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1216
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 5.6


(2)
Message 116 of 169 (884451)
02-20-2021 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Tangle
02-20-2021 3:23 AM


Better yet - we just need to say that there must be a reason that we can't understand. That way, there's no need to waste our time thinking up the impossible.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Tangle, posted 02-20-2021 3:23 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5582
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 117 of 169 (884485)
02-21-2021 7:58 PM


Guest Pastor
Michael Tooley - Wikipedia, philosopher emeritus from the University of Colorado, Boulder

... argues along 4 lines that atheism is a more legitimate world view than theism.

1. Atheism is philosophically the default starting view.
2. The corporeal nature of the human mind.
3. The argument from evil.
4. The argument from hiddenness.

Robert Kuhn, no intellectual slouch in his own right, goes through point-by-point in this shortened sit down interview with Dr. Tooley for PBS.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Phat, posted 02-22-2021 3:41 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14955
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 118 of 169 (884499)
02-22-2021 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by AZPaul3
02-21-2021 7:58 PM


Re: Guest Pastor
Tooley seems to favor Methodological Naturalism. His debate with William Lane Craig was enjoyable to read as both men stimulated my thinking beyond its usual limited and biased boundries.
AZPaul3 writes:

(Tooley)...... argues along 4 lines that atheism is a more legitimate world view than theism.

1. Atheism is philosophically the default starting view.
2. The corporeal nature of the human mind.
3. The argument from evil.
4. The argument from hiddenness.

William Lane Craig responds with 6 counter reasons of his own.Of course, you guys(jar,Tangle, nwr,xongsmith,PaulK,dwise1, and other secular humanist/atheist/agnostics) have a different foundational world view regarding God. My belief IS my foundation. The reason that it is is because I am convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that GOD exists and is knowable through Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit. The reason that AZPaul3 made this anti theism diatribe was not only that he has a warped sense of amusement and mockery concerning my beliefs but that he feels entitled--obligated even to express his feelings which are 180 degrees removed from mine.

quote:
  • At the most abstract level, then, theism provides a plausible metaphysical foundation for the existence of abstract objects. And that’s the first reason why I think it's plausible to believe in God.
  • God provides the best explanation of why the universe exists rather than nothing. Have you ever asked yourself why anything at all exists, or where the universe came from? Typically, atheists have said that the universe is just eternal, and that’s all. But surely this is unreasonable.
  • Many of you will ask incredulously what Craig(WLC) feels is so unreasonable about logic, reason, and "reality"...while I myself will go so far as to suggest that reality is not always as it appears and that just because you guys have never found ANY Objective evidence concerning a (supernatural) spiritual realm it DOES exist...I've experienced it.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 117 by AZPaul3, posted 02-21-2021 7:58 PM AZPaul3 has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 119 by PaulK, posted 02-22-2021 4:18 PM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 121 by AZPaul3, posted 02-22-2021 5:51 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 122 by nwr, posted 02-22-2021 6:04 PM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 125 by Tangle, posted 02-23-2021 3:18 AM Phat has responded

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 16733
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 3.0


    Message 119 of 169 (884501)
    02-22-2021 4:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 118 by Phat
    02-22-2021 3:41 PM


    Re: Guest Pastor
    The arguments you quote from Craig don’t sound very good.

    quote:
    At the most abstract level, then, theism provides a plausible metaphysical foundation for the existence of abstract objects. And that’s the first reason why I think it's plausible to believe in God.

    First you need to establish how abstract objects exist (if they do) and why they need a “metaphysical foundation”. And that is the subject of major philosophical debate.

    quote:
    God provides the best explanation of why the universe exists rather than nothing. Have you ever asked yourself why anything at all exists, or where the universe came from? Typically, atheists have said that the universe is just eternal, and that’s all. But surely this is unreasonable.

    And that’s just silly. Unless he can give a good reason why God exists - and he can’t - he’s just swapped one problem for another without gaining anything. Understanding the universe is a job for science, not bad apologetics.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 118 by Phat, posted 02-22-2021 3:41 PM Phat has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 120 by PaulK, posted 02-22-2021 5:17 PM PaulK has not yet responded

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 16733
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 3.0


    Message 120 of 169 (884502)
    02-22-2021 5:17 PM
    Reply to: Message 119 by PaulK
    02-22-2021 4:18 PM


    Re: Guest Pastor
    I’ve read some of it and my assessment has changed. I was far too generous to Craig. The argument about abstracts is not just making contentious assumptions. It’s a confused mess which makes no sense. Well, that’s what you get for relying on sophistry.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 119 by PaulK, posted 02-22-2021 4:18 PM PaulK has not yet responded

      
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