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Author Topic:   The Trump Post-Presidency
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1819
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 121 of 152 (884355)
02-13-2021 11:48 AM


Critical thinking warning: Don't let politicians conflate protesting with violence.
The anti Trump politicians (whether they care about Trump's policies, is not the point. Policies are not the issue, in many cases, but politican positioning and gamesmanship ALONE will be plenty enough to make them anti-Trump) like to conflate separate items. And by "separate", I mean totally separate.

Any reasonably good judge would throw the whole case out due to the jury having its mind poisoned by the slick out-of-context images . (The riot is one thing)

One impeachment manager actually said Trump told his supporters to fight "to the death", but when asked to produce the quote, he could only present a quote of Trump accusing Democrats of doing such a thing.

I am a critic of biased journalism, and frankly I now hold many journalists, from the last century, in higher regard, and this includes ones I had a low opinion of at the time! Why my change? I now see what true dishonesty, in journalism, really is all about. The list of infractions is far to long, but, for now, I will just say that the use of images to paint a (distorted or not) picture has brought out an understanding, in me, that journalists should perhaps not be (ethically) able to draw pictures and doctor videos to make a controversial case.

And that is just from the journalist's end.

Now we have legal proceedings that are a circus with smoke, mirrors, big screen productions, and worse. (MUCH MUCH WORSE)

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2021 12:32 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16735
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 122 of 152 (884356)
02-13-2021 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by LamarkNewAge
02-13-2021 11:48 AM


Re: Critical thinking warning: Don't let politicians conflate protesting with violence.
As is usual among the fanatics, LNA equates critical thinking with rationalising away arguments that oppose his position. That is why there is so little substance in his post, and nothing clearly relating to to his warning

Real critical thinking is anathema to him, since it exposes exactly what he’s doing,

The equation of protest with violence is a favourite of the Right. It’s closely akin to what Trunp’s lawyers are attempting to do with their videos (complete with background music).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-13-2021 11:48 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-13-2021 2:29 PM PaulK has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1819
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 123 of 152 (884357)
02-13-2021 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by PaulK
02-13-2021 12:32 PM


Re: Critical thinking warning: Don't let politicians conflate protesting with violence.
Where to begin?

Trump's lawyers say that hs wanted non violent protests.

Next issue:

Do you have any evidence that Trump told McCarthy that he supported the violence?

Trump is easily accused when there are no transcripts. He is accused of supporting violence even with transcripts and video showing otherwise.

You can't even tell us what time the conversation took place.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2021 12:32 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2021 3:08 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16735
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 124 of 152 (884358)
02-13-2021 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by LamarkNewAge
02-13-2021 2:29 PM


Re: Critical thinking warning: Don't let politicians conflate protesting with violence.
quote:
Where to begin?

You should have begun with an actual example of a politician confusing protest with violence.

quote:
Trump's lawyers say that hs wanted non violent protests.

Of course they do. They say a lot of things that aren’t true.

quote:
Do you have any evidence that Trump told McCarthy that he supported the violence?

I think that the actual quotes are a good indication that he did. But of course you don’t deal with the actual evidence. Which is a nice example of my point. You’re not interested in real critical thinking at all.

quote:
Trump is easily accused when there are no transcripts. He is accused of supporting violence even with transcripts and video showing otherwise.

Because there is good evidence that he did regardless of the transcripts. That you keep ignoring.

quote:
You can't even tell us what time the conversation took place.

Well before Trump told them to “go home in peace”.

I guess you’re following the lead of Trump’s lawyers:

But his lawyers cherry-picked his tweets, focusing on his request for supporters to "remain peaceful" without mentioning that he also attacked Pence and waited hours to explicitly urge rioters to leave the Capitol.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-13-2021 2:29 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-13-2021 3:36 PM PaulK has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1819
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 125 of 152 (884360)
02-13-2021 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by PaulK
02-13-2021 3:08 PM


Re: Critical thinking warning: Don't let politicians conflate protesting with violence.
Trump was in favor of protests, based on his words.

McCarthy was telling Trump to call off protests.

Trump saw the issue as protests.

It is obvious.

His first tweet post riot was 2:23.

His second was 2:38

What was the cherry picking accusation all about.?

The prosecution not only did violent cherry picking, but lied .Trump did not tell people to fight to death

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2021 3:08 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2021 3:45 PM LamarkNewAge has responded
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 02-13-2021 7:40 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16735
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 126 of 152 (884361)
02-13-2021 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by LamarkNewAge
02-13-2021 3:36 PM


Re: Critical thinking warning: Don't let politicians conflate protesting with violence.
quote:
Trump was in favor of protests, based on his words.

Trump was in favour of overturning the elections and peaceful protests wouldn’t have done that. That was the point of the rally. When he told them they could win he meant overturning the election. If he tells them to be strong are they really going to settle for something completely ineffectual?

quote:
McCarthy was telling Trump to call off protests.

That is pretty implausible. Why would he bother? What evidence do you have?

quote:
His first tweet post riot was 2:23.

His second was 2:38


Post riot would obviously be too late. After the riot is over it hardly matters.

quote:
The prosecution not only did violent cherry picking, but lied .Trump did not tell people to fight to death

There is worse dishonesty on the defence side. There’s even worse dishonesty from you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-13-2021 3:36 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-13-2021 3:50 PM PaulK has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1819
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 127 of 152 (884362)
02-13-2021 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by PaulK
02-13-2021 3:45 PM


Re: Critical thinking warning: Don't let politicians conflate protesting with violence.
Trump already told protesters to be peaceful in his Jan 6 speech .

He said "stay peaceful" in his second tweet.

He already called off violence before and after. Trump equated violence to stupidity in his pre protest-turned-riot speech .

Trump has evidence to back up his defense.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2021 3:45 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 02-13-2021 8:05 PM LamarkNewAge has responded
 Message 133 by PaulK, posted 02-14-2021 2:15 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14967
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 128 of 152 (884364)
02-13-2021 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by LamarkNewAge
02-13-2021 3:36 PM


Re: Critical thinking warning: Don't let politicians conflate protesting with violence.
After reading the comments of the last few posts by you, PaulK and others, my 2 cent conclusion is this:

A case was made by both the defense and prosecution. Either side had a valid argument, though I favor the prosecution. Trump went out of bounds for good form by an acting president. He was irresponsible.
The defense likely banked on the fact that the Republicans would be split enough that the prosecution would fall short of the 2/3 majority needed. The defense gambled well.

The Orange Menace may resurface in 4 years, but hopefully the voting public will see the light and the fact that they are responsible for choosing better (than him)

Al Jazeera had some inciteful comments from abroad.
‘Political cowardice’: US reacts to Trump impeachment acquittal
and
Donald Trump acquitted on charge of inciting US Capitol riot

Al Jazeera Quotes writes:

  • ...Notably, however, seven Republican senators voted to convict the former president, the largest number of conviction votes from senators in president’s own party for impeachment in US history.(...)The second trial’s outcome was not a surprise as the bar to convict would have required a significant bipartisan vote at a time when the US is extremely partisan – more deeply polarised politically than it has been in decades.

    “This trial wasn’t about choosing country over party, even not that this was about choosing country over Donald Trump and 43 Republican members chose Trump. They chose Trump,” Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer said following the vote.

  • So the world sees us as a weakened aging empire that is more partisan now than ever before.
    Unity or at the very least a consensus will require a lot of hard work, education, and ability to see the Bigger Picture.

    Edited by Phat, : added


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 125 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-13-2021 3:36 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 131 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-13-2021 8:49 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 141 by marc9000, posted 02-14-2021 6:00 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14967
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 129 of 152 (884365)
    02-13-2021 8:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 127 by LamarkNewAge
    02-13-2021 3:50 PM


    Interviewing the EvC Peanut Gallery
    My question is why you appear to be on his side. He was ineffective as a leader.

    I will admit that it takes guts to defend Trump on Forums such as this. I would defend him had I any evidence that he was the better choice. I don't. I'm just plain tired of him and don't want him back in any way shape or form.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 127 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-13-2021 3:50 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 130 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-13-2021 8:41 PM Phat has responded

      
    LamarkNewAge
    Member
    Posts: 1819
    Joined: 12-22-2015


    Message 130 of 152 (884367)
    02-13-2021 8:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 129 by Phat
    02-13-2021 8:05 PM


    Re: Interviewing the EvC Peanut Gallery
    I feel like every issue should stand on it's own.

    The issue is whether Trump attempted to incite an insurrection.

    (That was the lone charge)

    The answer is decisively "no", if evidence means anything.

    If the question was about possible negligence or failure to act in an effective manner to stop the riots, once they started, then there is no easy answer. That was not a charge,however.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 129 by Phat, posted 02-13-2021 8:05 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 136 by Phat, posted 02-14-2021 1:53 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

      
    LamarkNewAge
    Member
    Posts: 1819
    Joined: 12-22-2015


    Message 131 of 152 (884368)
    02-13-2021 8:49 PM
    Reply to: Message 128 by Phat
    02-13-2021 7:40 PM


    Re: Critical thinking warning: Don't let politicians conflate protesting with violence.
    The 43 Republicans who voted down the prosecution's case, actually included a fair number of folks who would not be inclined to support Trump.

    Trump was unique in that he had ferociously fought the entire Republican party to win the nomination.

    And the hateful battle was aginst all wings of the party.

    Trump verses the neocons like Rubio.

    Trump verses the libertarian leader Rand Paul.

    Trump against the far right straddler Ted Cruz .

    The 43 Senate Republicans had a million reasons to put politics( plus old bitter feelings) above evidence, but they choose to go with the evidence. It was the seven Republicans who voted to convict that were corrupted by raw political opportunism, and putting ideology over truth.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 128 by Phat, posted 02-13-2021 7:40 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    LamarkNewAge
    Member
    Posts: 1819
    Joined: 12-22-2015


    Message 132 of 152 (884369)
    02-13-2021 10:23 PM


    Looking at the 7 GOP jokers in the Senate.
    The first thing that amazes me was those who did not vote for removal ( no jokes about the absurdity, moving on...). It might be the first time I ever agreed with Lindsay Graham on anything. One would assume that he would have voted to convict, considering he has had the most combative history with Trump of any Republican, and considering he has 6 more years to answer to voters.

    But the clowns:

    Ben Sasse took the easy road (as he always does) and won't face voters till 2024.

    Susan Collins just got reelected, and her skills at making self-serving raw political calculations are well noted.

    Richard Burr is stepping down, in 2022, and it would have been nice to see him actually have to justify his glosses over the facts surrounding the actual events, but it will never happen.

    Mitt Romney has been a political opportunist his whole career, and he has not a minuscule margin set aside for principled political stands. This is the flip flopper of the century. And last century. The only period of slight consistency in his career was the slight integrity, in his issue positions, from the 8 years between his 1994 run against Ted Kennedy, and his 2002 win over Shannon O'Brien. He wasted no time in flipping on numerous issues once he was sworn in as Massachusetts governor in 2003.

    ( The same Mitt Romney that got all of 6% of the black vote in 2012, including 3% of black females)

    Bill Cassidy is up In 2022 I think. Mark Kennedy probably beat Landrieu in 2014, though he might have won the Vitter seat in 3016. I cant remember. I think Cassidy won the Breaux/ Vitter seat. Which means he is up in 2016. That would mean he had courage. I suppose.

    1 that is no clown.

    Pat Toomey is up in 2022, and he flips on every issue he feels will help him win. I will enjoy seeing the jerk balance this one.

    So far, 5 clowns, 1 possibly principled one.

    Now Lisa Murkowski of Alaska.

    She was appointed to the seat. In 2003, when her super corrupt father was Governor. The very obvious corrupt decision of her father ( claiming that he picked her because she was the most qualified person for the Senate) made her vulnerable, and especially since her 2004 opponent was a rare ex Democratic Governor ( Tony Knowles , Governor of Alaska from 1995 to 2003). She only managed a 49% to 45% win. Knowles then ran gof Governor again, but lost to Sarah Palin, who won the general election only after beating Governor Frank Murkowski in the GOP primary.

    Murkowski actually lost the GOP primary in 2010 ( to a Sarah Palin endorsed challenger)but was able to run ad an independent candidate to keep her seat. She won easily in 2016, her first easy victory.

    Murkowski is one I respect. Her 2022 primary will be tough.

    2014 was interesting in Alaska.

    Sarah Palin's Lieutenant Governor became Governor in 2008, but she endorsed his Democratic opponent in 2014( The Pro Medicaid expansion "Fushion Candidate"), and Democrats took the mansion again.

    Also in 2014. The other long serving corrupt Republicans Senator, Ted Stevens, lost in 2008, to Anchorage Democraticmayor Mark Begich. Begich only lost reelection 49% to 47%, helped my the pot legalization ballot measure. His 2008 win was a fluke (Steven's pockets were lined with hundreds of thousands in favors) but the close loss in 2014 was more impressive for an Alaska Democrat.

    So a pro-gun Democrat can possibly win in Alaska, it seems.

    Murkowski is giving Democrats a shot at the seat. Better hope she loses the primary. Her vote for conviction makes it possible. But she can loose the primary and run in the general election .

    ( Alaska does have much better Senators than the bad old days of Ted Stevens and Frank Murkowski)

    Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 16735
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.9


    Message 133 of 152 (884370)
    02-14-2021 2:15 AM
    Reply to: Message 127 by LamarkNewAge
    02-13-2021 3:50 PM


    Re: Critical thinking warning: Don't let politicians conflate protesting with violence.
    In other words you ignore all the contrary evidence. Trump made noises about staying peaceful, but he was the one who stirred up the rioters. He was the one who promised that the event would be “wild”. He was the one who told them that they could win by staying “strong” when peaceful protest couldn’t accomplish that.

    Several of the rioters - Trump loyalists like you - claim that they were doing what he wanted. If that’s what they understood from his message then it’s obviously possible that’s what he wanted them to get from his message.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 127 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-13-2021 3:50 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 19960
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 4.4


    Message 134 of 152 (884372)
    02-14-2021 12:40 PM


    Trump Acquitted
    I watched the entire impeachment trial from beginning to end. Trump was acquitted 57 to 43 with 7 Republicans crossing the aisle, a record for bipartisanship in an impeachment trial. Mitch McConnell excoriated Trump while justifying his vote to acquit on a highly questionable jurisdictional technicality. Susan Collins (R-Maine) also excoriated Trump while justifying her vote to convict. Lisa Murkowski (R-Alaska) also voted to convict and is expected to face tough reelection challenges within her own party in 2022.

    Conviction at trial always faced very long odds, and the country is now no safer than before from the threat of Trump's political influence over the Republican party nor from the possibility of Trump running for president again in 2024.

    We need some kind of legal protection from lying and manipulative demagogues, free speech notwithstanding. The success of a charlatan at convincing a large portion of the country of demonstrably untrue things is proof that some kind of protection of this sort is necessary. Democracy depends upon an informed electorate, and Trump proved it possible to render a large portion of the electorate profoundly uninformed. As Daniel Patrick Moynihan once argued, people are entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts. The cause of our current divisions is too many people accepting falsities as facts. They didn't invent this false reality on their own - it was told to them over and over again in tweets, news articles, talk shows, podcasts and rallies.

    The country needs economic fairness, better access to healthcare, racial equality, reasonable immigration laws, improved infrastructure, and the protection from demagogues just mentioned. Those running for public office and promising these policies and reforms deserve your vote.

    --Percy


    Replies to this message:
     Message 135 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-14-2021 1:46 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
     Message 137 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-14-2021 1:56 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

      
    LamarkNewAge
    Member
    Posts: 1819
    Joined: 12-22-2015


    Message 135 of 152 (884373)
    02-14-2021 1:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 134 by Percy
    02-14-2021 12:40 PM


    Re: Trump Acquitted
    The last part of your post is the problem I keep seeing with impeachment supporters. Before, I get to my MAJOR problem (which nobody here seems to get), I should point out that I appreciated the fact that you mentioned the awareness of the threat to free speech this whole 2021 impeachment episode has brought. I have been terrified by that implication in this impeachment trial.

    But, putting aside the fundamental human right issue( the end of free speech is the end of humanity's hopes and dreams and very future)of free speech, my problem is that impeachment suppirters keep interlacing the impeachment charge debate with political issue positions.

    (Phat seemed to think that Trump being an "ineffective" President justifies a guilty charge on criminal incitement, and he seems to be one of the relatively open-minded people in this discussion.)

    Your last paragraph caught my attention, but I really shouldn't have been too shocked.

    (This entire thread, posters have expected some sort of debate on tax & spend, immigration, public highway funding, etc.)

    Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

    Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 134 by Percy, posted 02-14-2021 12:40 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

      
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