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Author | Topic: Belief Versus The Scientific Method | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Not only do you refuse to do what He said but you dismiss the Bible as a "dusty old book".
ringo would charge me with ignoring what He says to do in scripture. Phat writes:
I wouldn't use the word "literal" but I do insist that it says what it says. You assert that it doesn't mean what it says but you can't back up that assertion.
I challenge and deny ringos assertion unless it is taken word for word literal... Phat writes:
You refuse to give ANYTHING up. You worship every word that cometh out of the mouths of the apologists even though you don't understand them.
...and I am failing simply because I refuse to give everything up. Phat writes:
How many times do we have to go through this? I don't have to believe Frodo existed to know what he said. Why don't you address that point instead of just repeating the same old foolish accusation? If I claimed that Frodo was communing with me and telling me that the "dusty old book" was wrong, you'd think I was stark, staring mad. So why is your claim any different?
I dismiss ringos accusations due to the fact that he doesnt even believe in a character alive apart from the inked words and symbols within the book itself. Phat writes:
And that's another argument that you never address.
He would argue that it doesnt matter whether the character of jesus is alive apart from the written word or not. Phat writes:
None are righteous BECAUSE they don't do what Jesus said. It's not an excuse (see the case of sheep v goats).
He would say that i wont listen and do what Jesus says to do. I would argue that none are righteous... Phat writes:
That's blatantly false. As I have pointed out many times, the early church did it (see Ananias and Sapphira). And throughout history, many religious communities have done it, Christian and otherwise. ...and that no one does what Jesus said collectively to do. Stop repeating the same old same old falsehoods and address the responses."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It has nothing to do with me acknowledging your belief. It's about YOU rejecting my argument BECAUSE I don't believe. The whole point of bringing up Frodo is to try to get you to understand that my lack of belief in the character has nothing to do with my understanding of the character.
But what you are essentially doing is acknowledging that I believe that Frodo exists and then attempting to hold me to the Frodo in the book... Phat writes:
Then you need to present something more than just a belief that Frodo is whispering in your ear (and telling you that Tolkien got it all wrong).
And If I then claim that Frodo transcends the book and that a bit of Frodo exists in ALL of us... Phat writes:
I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm pointing out that your inner Frodo IS just an inner Frodo with no basis in reality, not even any basis in the fantasy it's based on. Why do you call it Frodo at all? Why not call it Holden? Why accuse me? I channel my inner Frodo. All that you attempt to claim is that the dusty old book says what it says, period. And do you see how silly your position looks when we substitute "Frodo" for "Jesus"?
Phat writes:
There really aren't. And never mind that there are more Frodos out there than simply the one in the Lord of the Rings. (or the Hobbit)"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
How so? I said that there's only one Frodo and you come out of left field with a statement that has nothing to do with what you quoted.
This shows me that you really *should* be a believer. Frodo writes:
It isn't "my" methodology. It's THE methodology, the same methodology that YOU use for almost everything.
I think you reject it due to your pride on your own methodology that replaced your belief. Phat writes:
Yes he is. You wish he wasn't but he is.
Jesus is not simply a character in a book. Phat writes:
I can demonstrate that your interpretation is made up in your head.
You cant tell me what my interpretation of the character must be by forcing me into your argumentative points. Phat writes:
Utter nonsense. We have all kinds of evidence that Lincoln existed. We're only a couple of generations away from people who knew him personally and did actually commune with him. Please don't make such a fool of yourself. I refuse to "throw away" Jesus (which is, by the way the silliest argument jar has ever brought forth.) It would be like throwing away Lincoln and believing in revisionist history!"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Indeed. It's the "almost" that shoots you down. Do you use gasoline "almost" always in your car - and substitute GatorAde only on specific occasions?
Keyword: ALMOST. Phat writes:
Sure, he's thousands of characters in thousands of books.
Not only is GOD more than a chaacter in a book... Phat writes:
Blah blah blah.... You're just repeating an opinion. SHOW that he's not on the same level.
God is not on the same level as leprechauns, bigfoot, weird hindu deities bedecked with jewels, or old indian legends. Phat writes:
Which it does. The assumption that God creates thunder has been thoroughly refuted.
As for "The" Methodology, I disagree with that claim. Science is not to be elevated above belief unless it objectively and conclusively refutes a prior assumption. Phat writes:
But you owe it to yourself to think about why he doesn't. And why the leprechauns don't.
He does not owe it to everybody to present Himself. Phat writes:
You contradict yourself. You've said many times that he doesn't speak to everybody. He gives them the roadmap and they must do the work to find Him. Or would the "road map" be the Bible - which you reject?
Phat writes:
YOU'RE the one who says you don't do it. YOU say it would be foolish to do it.
Finally, you will get back to your primary accusation: That I don't do what the character in that dusty old book says to do. Thats a pretty brash statement coming from a guy who doesn't observe me or my habits on a daily basis. Phat writes:
READ. I'll type slowly so you can keep up: Nobody said anything about everybody on the planet. The instruction is to CHRISTIANS.
But its insane to imaine that everybody on this planet could, would, and should give up everything they own...for each other. Phat writes:
It's not "my defense". I point it out when you say it can't be done. I point out that you are factually wrong.
Your defense is that there are select groups of christians throughout History who have done just that. Phat writes:
Because I don't believe Jesus will take care of me. Obviously, neither do you. And why dont you do it?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Becuse that's what Jesus told you to do. It's the straight and narrow way.
Why should you get to sit around in a warm house while I shiver under a bridge due to the fact that I gave up mine? Phat writes:
He gave you the brains to ignore what he told you to do? That's an odd thing to say.
Jesus gave me the brains to keep my house for now. Phat writes:
That doesn't make any sense. A house is worth a lot of spare change.
He likely knows darn well that a guy in a warm house...perhaps even a guy who doesn't believe in Him...is far better equipped to give out spare change to His children under the bridge. Phat writes:
He can push.
A sheep cannot pull a sheep out of a ditch if it too is in the ditch. Phat writes:
Here's a story for you: Last summer, I was sitting outside the library using the wifi. I had just put my phone away and was sitting there getting ready to get up when a guy that I would have thought was homeless offered me a dollar. I had quite a time convincing him that I didn't need it. A guy under a bridge cant very well help anyone.... So yes, homeless people can be generous, even if it's only with two mites."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Taking up your cross daily and following Jesus is not about what YOU favor. I tend to favor...."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
What levity?
So I attempt a bit of levity... Phat writes:
I have never promised you anything but blood, sweat, toil and tears - as opposed to the aplogists who promise you a get-out-of-hell-free card and secret messages from Jesus with no effort required on your part. ... and am essentially told to get busy and embrace suffering. What are you? Channeling Jesus? Yes, life is hard, especially when you consider the hardships in the other guy's life."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Okay. Also:10 Quick reasons you shouldn’t be so quick to write off Christianity Feel free to challenge, scoff, and trash this. It's thinly-veiled creationism. And even IF the universe had a beginning, was finely tuned, yadda yadda yadda, that might suggest a creator but it has NOTHING to do with Christianity. If you think you can defend any of that tripe, go ahead."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Oh come on, I gave you two examples - the universe had a beginning and it's fine-tuned.
I dont see anything suggesting creationism... Phat writes:
Neither of those arguments supports the Christian God. They could apply to any god.
...unless perhaps you are worried that any argument that supports the Christian God assumes creationism to begin with. Phat writes:
Then why can't you make the arguments in your own words?
What I DO is I read the arguments and form my own beliefs and opinions or hone and revise the beliefs I already hold. Phat writes:
Because it has nothing to do with the Christian God specifically. If you think any other god is excluded, you need to explain why.
(Ringo is careful to distance this concept from the Christian God, for some reason) Christianity far from being a crutch for the weak grew and continues to spread during times of intense persecution.
PRATT."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Which has nothing to do with Christianity.
It may not be fine tuned, but it most definitely had a beginning. Science even supports that currently. Phat writes:
There are thousamds of gods. Your apologist's claims do nothing to support one over the others.
There is only one God (If any) and there is no reason it couldnt be the Christian God. Specifically. Phat writes:
So learn them and present them in your own words.
It takes me a while to learn the arguments and counter-arguments well enough to articulate them in combination with my evolving beliefs in my own words. Phat writes:
I asked for an explanation, not an empty opinion. As I said before, no other Gods exist."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
And vice versa, a belief is but an empty opinion, like one's favorite flavor of ice cream.
An empty opinion is but a belief. Phat writes:
But we shouldn't "rely" on them. They're not reliable.
We all have them, and some of us rely on them more than others. Phat writes:
That's what I've been telling you for years.
I submit that it is impossible to defend either the idea that One God or many gods exist. Phat writes:
Either would be preferable to an empty believer. You are asking me to become either a science fiction writer or a contrarian skeptic such as yourself."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Yup. That's the only place there are any. Even IF there is a creator of all thigs seen and unseen, there is no way for anybody to know anything about him/her/it. Everything you think you know about him/her/it is the product of human imagination.
There are only thousands of gods within human imaginations. Phat writes:
That's what YOU should be doing. And before you mock me for claiming to know the One God, ask yourself why any God is possible, pick one blindfolded, and then ask whether or not you choose to believe your pick is likely or unlikely."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Don't assume that nothing occurs to anybody but you. Did it ever occur to any of you that this mysterious "God" whom we speak of would allow us to know?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If I ask YOU whether you have thought about something, it's because you've said something that indicates you haven't thought about it. For example, I have to wonder if you have really thought about the difference between your God and other Gods because you can never give a valid example of the difference.
So you have thought about it. Phat writes:
That's just a detail of the story that you made up, like Long John Silver only having one leg.
The God I create exists even if I never existed. Phat writes:
It certainly is. You can't just claim that Long John Silver really did have only one leg even if Robert Louis Stevenson never existed.
That, my friend, is not an empty belief nor simply a subjective opinion. Phat writes:
Of course we can, because you can't show any difference between your made-up god and any other made-up god. You and ringo cant simply use the silly argument of (insert God of choice here."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Says your subjective opinion.
A belief is not simply a subjective opinion. Phat writes:
They don't "become" empty. They start out empty and without evidence they stay empty.
You seem to think that without evidence beliefs become "empty." Phat writes:
ALL evidence is objective. When will you learn that? I've told you many times.
The type of evidence which you seek is objective. Right or wrong? Phat writes:
Because they disagree with other unevidenced beliefs.
ringo writes:
Why not? But we shouldn't "rely" on them. (unevidenced beliefs)They're not reliable. Phat writes:
And you continue to fail to show that I'm wrong.
Yes, but you continue to try and push the idea that an undefendable idea/belief is no closer to the truth than is a unicorn, a Big-foot, or a Spaghetti Monster. Phat writes:
You're the only one here who sounds silly. If you think there is a difference, you have to show us what the difference is.
Dont you realize how silly you sound? Phat writes:
Of course I have objections. You might as well say that this God should be known also as Holden Caulfield. It's nonsensical.
To start with, I will first move that this God should be known also as Jesus. Any objections? Phat writes:
And why would anybody prefer dishonesty?
It is pretty clear why you stopped believing. You preferred honest unbelief over what you call empty belief. Phat writes:
Why not? How is fantasy different from fantasy?
But you should not then lump every single believer (those who chose what you define as empty belief) as engaging in fantasy over reality. Phat writes:
No such thing as subjective evidence.
There is in my opinion quite a bit of evidence..(however subjective)... Phat writes:
Very little evidence. And remember that you reject what the Bible says about Jesus.
... that Jesus existed... Phat writes:
A fictional character can be influential, especially if people believe he is real.
and was quite an influential figure in human history. Phat writes:
I'll argue it till the cows come home. Why don't you address my arguments? Care to argue that one or can we move on?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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