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Author Topic:   Belief Versus The Scientific Method
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1316
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(6)
Message 209 of 513 (890466)
01-06-2022 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by drlove
01-06-2022 3:47 AM


Re: belief in the method
English (and indeed any other language) is a funny beast. It evolves and changes and lacks absolute rigidity.

One of the key results of this is that words can have broad applications to different situations.

One of those is the word "faith". Amongst other meanings, it can refer to religious faith and also to confidence in an outcome - for example, "I have no faith in Boris Johnson's ability to organise a piss up in a brewery".

You are conflating those two meanings. When scientists say that they have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow (not that they feel the need to say that a lot) they mean they have confidence in the spectacularly high scientific probability of that outcome, based on observations, data and validated theories.

Saying that you have faith that some bearded fellow with a sadistic history wished the sun into existence, as a result of some inconsistent stories written down in the Bronze Age, is using a different meaning of the word faith.

Edited by vimesey, : No reason given.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by drlove, posted 01-06-2022 3:47 AM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by drlove, posted 01-06-2022 2:27 PM vimesey has taken no action

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1316
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 213 of 513 (890471)
01-06-2022 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by Phat
01-06-2022 7:40 AM


Re: Peanut Gallery dogpiles Phat
Well, I'm going by the myriad paintings there are of God in human form, where he always has a beard. (Not that the Bible confirms he does, as far as I'm aware).

Not having met him myself, that's as much as I've got to go on.

(I've got a beard myself (I keep it short), but that's because I grew it on holiday one year, and it turns out my wife is very keen on it, so I've kept it going (for totally un-selfish reasons, obviously...).


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Phat, posted 01-06-2022 7:40 AM Phat has seen this message

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by drlove, posted 01-06-2022 2:38 PM vimesey has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1316
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 236 of 513 (890511)
01-07-2022 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by drlove
01-06-2022 2:38 PM


Re: Peanut Gallery dogpiles Phat
We can have faith (using the word in its confidence in outcomes sense) in science, as a result of science needing to be falsifiable.

Here is an extract from the Wiki page on the scientific method:

A hypothesis is a conjecture, based on knowledge obtained while seeking answers to the question. The hypothesis might be very specific, or it might be broad. Scientists then test hypotheses by conducting experiments or studies. A scientific hypothesis must be falsifiable, implying that it is possible to identify a possible outcome of an experiment or observation that conflicts with predictions deduced from the hypothesis; otherwise, the hypothesis cannot be meaningfully tested.

So science has to be capable of being falsified, in order to be science. That's how it works.

So far, the vast field of science has not been falsified in any major way. It has been refined and improved, and no doubt will continue to be. But everything we do and use in modern society assumes that science will work. For example, Sat nav systems take general relativity into account - and guess what ! They work !

As yet, the only people with beards who are involved in the Sat nav system are those male Sat nav scientists and engineers who choose to wear them.

So when it comes to having faith in something guiding me safely and efficiently from home to a new garden centre my wife would like us to visit, I put mine in the (sometimes) bearded folk of science, rather than getting in my car and having faith in some bearded bloke from some iron age stories, to tell me where to go.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by drlove, posted 01-06-2022 2:38 PM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by drlove, posted 01-07-2022 2:09 AM vimesey has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1316
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 245 of 513 (890520)
01-07-2022 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by drlove
01-07-2022 2:09 AM


Re: Peanut Gallery dogpiles Phat
What we actually have is falsely called knowledge. A misuse of the English language and a lie using word games.

I had a small bet with myself as to how long it would take you before a logical dismantling of your premise resulted in you retreating into the usual excuse of "you're telling lies", without any evidence to support it. You just got the record - well done.

You carry on enjoying all the benefits that science has brought to your life, whilst pretending that your bronze age sadistic bearded chap provided everything to you. As for me, I'm off to do some good in the world. Cheerio.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by drlove, posted 01-07-2022 2:09 AM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by drlove, posted 01-07-2022 2:49 PM vimesey has taken no action

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1316
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 274 of 513 (890564)
01-08-2022 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by Tangle
01-08-2022 3:14 AM


Looking at his frequent Engliah grammar mistakes, one guess would be that a Russian bot farm is using EvC as a training ground for their apprentice farmers. I assume he gets his vodka ration withheld for each mistake made. Once he gets better, they'll move him on to QAnon and similar, and we won't hear from him again (though he may get replaced by a new apprentice).

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Tangle, posted 01-08-2022 3:14 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Tangle, posted 01-08-2022 9:38 AM vimesey has taken no action
 Message 281 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-08-2022 11:06 AM vimesey has taken no action

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1316
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 356 of 513 (890695)
01-10-2022 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 354 by drlove
01-10-2022 1:46 AM


"Majority of COVID ICU Admissions are Fully Vaccinated"

Well, even brushing over the name of the website/author you reference (Fomorian - which is a mythical Irish folklore beast - oh so very scientific), you clearly need to get your handler to teach you a little basic maths. What proportion of Ontario's population is fully vaccinated ?

(Having found that out, see if you can guess what the next logical step is, when looking at the bald statistic of the number of people in ICU with Covid who are unvaccinated). It's pretty basic logic.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by drlove, posted 01-10-2022 1:46 AM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by drlove, posted 01-10-2022 2:52 PM vimesey has taken no action

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1316
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 454 of 513 (891067)
01-15-2022 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 453 by Tangle
01-15-2022 4:56 AM


Re: Foxes guarding henhouse
But also, had you given it any thought at all, you'd have worked out that because there were no vaccines available before their manufacture, people in the control group had no access to them.

If you're accusing the scientists of being corrupt and vaccinating the control group too, the result would have shown that the vaccine was no better than no vaccine. And that any side effects would also appear in the control group. ie exactly the opposite of what you are alleging. Do'h.

You have painted our Russian cub into a logical corner from which there is no rational way out.

That leaves him with 2 options. Repeat the lies - but we all know that's just bald assertion without evidence. Or move on to a different strand of disinformation. He'll have to try one or the other to avoid his handler's wrath.

(By the way drlove, I'd recommend coming across to the light from the dark side. Not only are the people much nicer, but whisky is so much better than vodka).


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by Tangle, posted 01-15-2022 4:56 AM Tangle has taken no action

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1316
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 507 of 513 (891369)
01-27-2022 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 506 by Tangle
01-27-2022 3:06 AM


Re: Any Redeeming Value?
Nothing like someone professing to be Christian and collecting asault rifles (and indeed putting them on their family's Christmas card - a time celebrating their Christ's birthday).

I do struggle to remember the bit in the Bible where Jesus told people to go out and arm themselves. Can anyone help with that ?

I do recall him saying this in Matthew ch 5: "You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." But maybe he retracted that somewhere ?

Edited by vimesey, : No reason given.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 506 by Tangle, posted 01-27-2022 3:06 AM Tangle has taken no action

  
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