Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9077 total)
109 online now:
vimesey (1 member, 108 visitors)
Newest Member: Contrarian
Post Volume: Total: 894,025 Year: 5,137/6,534 Month: 557/794 Week: 48/135 Day: 0/25 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Belief Versus The Scientific Method
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8549
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 48 of 513 (885336)
04-05-2021 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
04-05-2021 3:44 PM


Re: Frodo Lives
Phat writes:

But that's not fair. Why should you get to sit around in a warm house while I shiver under a bridge due to the fact that I gave up mine?

I think you should examine yourself on this statement Phat because it really challenges your belief.

You know that giving up everything and following Christ is what you are charged to do. You know it's not fair but you know that that is exactly the point because suffering on behalf of others in this world is rewarded in the next.

Do you not believe sufficiently in the afterlife to do what is necessary to achieve it in this?

You talk (commune) with god directly so surely he will have given you guidance on this. What does he have to say about your reluctance?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 04-05-2021 3:44 PM Phat has seen this message

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by dwise1, posted 04-05-2021 6:10 PM Tangle has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8549
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 54 of 513 (885343)
04-06-2021 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Percy
04-05-2021 6:04 PM


Re: Frodo Lives
Percy writes:

Consistency should count for something, I guess.

Only if it can count at all. (17 years)


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 04-05-2021 6:04 PM Percy has seen this message

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Phat, posted 04-06-2021 9:07 AM Tangle has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8549
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 148 of 513 (890400)
01-05-2022 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by drlove
01-05-2022 3:13 PM


Re: belief in the method
drlove writes:

Except that the guy who says he is a joke of a known liar happened to be the guy that invented mrna vaccine, no? Why would we favour the one opinion over the other?

It wouldn't matter a toss if he was Micky Mouse in drag buggering the Pope.

Science stands independent of the scientist and regardless of media.

Science's great value is that it works. It has to be able to be demonstrated to work to others. If it doesn't work it's called something else - a story, a belief, a myth, a religion, a mistake - whatever.

We're fond and proud of our scientists but it's the scientific method not the scientist that makes science work.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by drlove, posted 01-05-2022 3:13 PM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by drlove, posted 01-05-2022 4:58 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8549
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 173 of 513 (890425)
01-05-2022 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by drlove
01-05-2022 4:58 PM


Re: belief in the method
drlove writes:

Do not both Fauci and Malone use the scientific method? So who is to say where it actually applies?

I dunno, I have no insight into the weird politics of a foreign country, I'm just trying to straighten out your lack of understanding about what science is and how we know it works.

Do the vaccines work? Who made them?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by drlove, posted 01-05-2022 4:58 PM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by drlove, posted 01-05-2022 5:16 PM Tangle has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8549
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 184 of 513 (890436)
01-05-2022 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by drlove
01-05-2022 5:37 PM


Re: belief in the method
drlove writes:

You are wrong. The mention of the Canadian thing was true. You stand corrected.
Trudeau calls the unvaccinated racist and misogynistic extremists

I know even less about Canadian politics than the American version but I can smell a rat from the correct side of the Atlantic.

The shock headline in the Western Standard (just below an advert for Bitcoin investment) was

"Trudeau calls the unvaccinated racist and misogynistic extremists"

Its second sentence in the actual article inserts the word "often"

"Prime Minister Justin Trudeau told a Quebec television station people who do not get vaccinated against COVID-19 are often racist and misogynistic extremists."

So now it's not all the unvaccinated that are racist, misogynistic and extremists.

They then report some of his actual words that are

quote:
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau told a Quebec television station people who do not get vaccinated against COVID-19 are often racist and misogynistic extremists.

But he said the people of Quebec are not the problem and questioned whether the rest of Canada needs to “tolerate” the unvaccinated.

His comments prompted People’s Party of Canada leader Maxime Bernier to call Trudeau a “fascist psychopath.”

Trudeau also called unvaccinated Canadians science deniers.

“We are going to end this pandemic by proceeding with the vaccination,” said Trudeau in French.

“We all know people who are deciding whether or not they are willing to get vaccinated, and we will do our very best to try to convince them. However, there is still a part of the population (that) is fiercely against it.

“They don’t believe in science/progress and are very often misogynistic and racist. It’s a very small group of people, but that doesn’t shy away from the fact that they take up some space.

“This leads us, as a leader and as a country, to make a choice: Do we tolerate these people? Over 80% of the population of Quebec have done their duty by getting the shot. They are obviously not the issue in this situation.”


So now it's clear that he's referring to a very small group which presumably is related to something that has happened in Canada.

I have no idea where this misogyny and racism comes from not being party to Canadian politics but I suspect its related to a problem we have here also where the vaccine take up in some minority groups - Asian mainly - is significantly lower than in others.

Anyway, are you vaccinated drlove?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by drlove, posted 01-05-2022 5:37 PM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by drlove, posted 01-05-2022 7:00 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8549
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 210 of 513 (890467)
01-06-2022 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by drlove
01-05-2022 7:00 PM


Re: belief in the method
drlove writes:

I Know. It was most people.

Well that's a really bizarre reply. I gave you his actual words -

"It’s a very small group of people [...]"

So not most people then.

Are you going to continue with these one or two sentence response or are you going to attempt some more thoughtful discussion?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by drlove, posted 01-05-2022 7:00 PM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by dwise1, posted 01-06-2022 11:33 AM Tangle has taken no action
 Message 219 by drlove, posted 01-06-2022 2:36 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8549
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 223 of 513 (890492)
01-06-2022 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by drlove
01-06-2022 2:36 PM


Re: belief in the method
drlove writes:

The group was a minority, not most Canadians.


Good. Progress.

As I said that is hate speech.

Well I certainly don't like the sound of it. It does sound like something he really shouldn't have said.

But I haven't researched the context have you? Have you looked at what he actually said and considered why he might have said it?

You didn't answer my question, are you vaccinated?

By the way, since big names in medical science have said the science is not at all on the PMs side, we see people do choose what to believe as science!

Big names eh! Wow! You have no idea how unimpressive that statement sounds to a scientist. Religious people are impressed by authority figures, scientists are impressed by evidence.

You need to understand that scientific understanding is developmental. It develops and consolidates over time as new information is uncovered. During the discovery period there are raging arguments between scientists until a consensus forms. Sadly, it's often the case that actions have to be taken by politicians before a consensus is arrived at. Rational people live with this dilemma.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by drlove, posted 01-06-2022 2:36 PM drlove has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8549
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 244 of 513 (890519)
01-07-2022 3:00 AM


So drlove, are you going to tell us if you've been vaccinated?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by drlove, posted 01-07-2022 2:43 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8549
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 254 of 513 (890543)
01-07-2022 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by drlove
01-07-2022 2:43 PM


drlove writes:

Why would we do that?

Why wouldn't we? Indulge me, why so shy?

If you'd like to know why, it's because you appear to be irrationally anti-science and one way to demonstrate that I'm wrong would be to disclose your position on vaccinations.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by drlove, posted 01-07-2022 2:43 PM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by drlove, posted 01-07-2022 5:06 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8549
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 256 of 513 (890546)
01-07-2022 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by drlove
01-07-2022 5:06 PM


drlove writes:

So those who chose to believe the tens of thousands of experts on one side are irrational? It seems to me that those who think all people must accept their beliefs are the irrational ones

So you're not answering my question. If this was a UK law court I'm allowed to take an adverse inference, and the inference I take is that you're anti-vax.
Ok, that clears a few things up for me.

Could you now tell us how old you think the earth is?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by drlove, posted 01-07-2022 5:06 PM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by drlove, posted 01-07-2022 5:23 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8549
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 259 of 513 (890549)
01-07-2022 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by drlove
01-07-2022 5:23 PM


drlove writes:

I am pro real science.

Great so why not answer my question? The cock has crowed at least thrice now?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by drlove, posted 01-07-2022 5:23 PM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-07-2022 7:03 PM Tangle has taken no action
 Message 264 by drlove, posted 01-08-2022 12:21 AM Tangle has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8549
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 273 of 513 (890563)
01-08-2022 3:14 AM


So what we have here is an anti-vax troll spreading lies and refusing to answer challenges.

It's always a puzzle what to do about the religious deluded, but they are at least mostly harmless. This ignoramus is one of the deluded dangerous, and appears to be part of the anti-vax, anti-science propaganda campaign.

Obviously, we're not going to get any sense out of him, the question is whether it's worth continuing to poke at him for entertainment value?

I suppose that while he's distracted here with his two line posts that are only going to amuse us, he isn't doing any real harm elsewhere.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by vimesey, posted 01-08-2022 8:09 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 276 by AZPaul3, posted 01-08-2022 9:45 AM Tangle has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8549
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 275 of 513 (890565)
01-08-2022 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by vimesey
01-08-2022 8:09 AM


Speaking of QAnon

quote:
A leading figure in the QAnon conspiracy movement who said that only “idiots” get vaccinated has died of Covid-19.

Oops. It seems that the virus doesn't care what you believe

Prominent QAnon conspiracy theorist dies from Covid after saying only ‘idiots’ get vaccinated


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by vimesey, posted 01-08-2022 8:09 AM vimesey has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8549
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


(3)
Message 351 of 513 (890680)
01-09-2022 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by drlove
01-09-2022 3:27 PM


drlove writes:

The reasoned argument is that in the example of medical science, there are different opinions and beliefs on some issues. That tells us that belief is involved, whatever side of the coin you may prefer.

You seem to think that all opinion and all science is equal and all can be dealt with by simply posting a link, seemingly to stuff you haven't actually read.

I read a few of the papers in your '150 studies show masks are ineffective, harmful'. None of them said anything as definitive as that and a few actually contradicted the claim. Some were just irrelevant. Basically, it was just a bunch of randomly selected papers that your man thought might help his half-arsed argument. He made no attempt to balance; no attempt to find papers that didn't support his argument. No critical analysis at all - none. Despicable, biased, lying and a lazy. Not even science.

Mask wearing is one of the least certain aspects of this epidemic. Personally I think it's pretty well balanced and that a lot of it may be just COVID theatre but in science terms it's still early days; we're still accumulation of knowledge. So the precautionary principle applies.

I was relieved to see that most (of the ones I read anyway) were at least from reputable sources, though not many would be included in any meta-analysis being too small or two methodologically weak.

How many have you read?

But in this battle of links where you think all are equal, do we win if we can give you more than you can give us? You do accept that the overwhelming scientific consensus is in favour of vaccination?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by drlove, posted 01-09-2022 3:27 PM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by drlove, posted 01-10-2022 1:46 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8549
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 357 of 513 (890696)
01-10-2022 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 354 by drlove
01-10-2022 1:46 AM


drlove writes:

Yet a quick search found this.


You found a link that you think supports your argument! Wow!

I bet that if you tried again you could find one - or a few thousand - that did the opposite; have you ever tried that? Maybe looking at the whole of the science not just the bits that you like?

As I said, the science is not just one sided. It is a matter of belief.
example:

"Majority of COVID ICU Admissions are Fully Vaccinated"

Ok, so when presented with that piece of information what did you do next? Did you do any further research or consider why it might be correct and what it actually means? Or did you think, great, I can use that in my little campaign of ignorance?

This is what honest people do, they think how can this statement…

“ Ontario: Majority of COVID ICU Admissions are Fully Vaccinated
Fully vaccinated (137) now outnumber unvaccinated people (123) in ICU admissions for COVID19”

… be compatible with proven science that the vaccine works? There must be something wrong somewhere.

I know you don't want to know why it's a fully expected and fully predicted situation but I'm going to tell you anyway just so that when you repeat the it to others you'll know that you're deliberately lying to them.

The first problem we have is that you have chosen a sample of 1. It's terrible science to take an individual measurement and project it into a general statement. Off hand I can think of a half dozen reasons why a single hospital might at any one time have an imbalance of vax to non-vax patients. But never mind that point.

The real answer is pure arithmetic. Here are some real facts that you need in order to do the sums. This is UK data

“[…] unvaccinated adults are as much as eight times more likely to be admitted to hospital than those who have been vaccinated and […] booster doses are 88% effective at preventing hospital admission.”
(The US number for the Delta variant was that the unvaccinated were 11 times more likely to die than the vaccinated.)
and

“A separate report published by the UKHSA showed that, although unvaccinated individuals made up only a small proportion of the overall population, they accounted for 27% of those with a confirmed case of omicron admitted to hospital in England and for 39% in London.”

You need a couple more numbers, the population of the country you're looking at (UK about 70m) and the proportion that are vaccinated (UK about 70%).

When you do the actual work, you'll find that because the vaccine is not perfect a small percentage of the vaccinated will end up in hospital, and because a small percentage of a large number - like (70m x 0.7)- is still a large number there will be times when the vaccinated overtake the unvaccinated in hospital.

It's just arithmetic. If more people are vaccinated than unvaccinated and if the vaccination is not 100% there will be a point where more vaccinated than unvaccinated will be in hospital.

btw, the UK numbers for December 2021 are 61% of those in hospital are unvaccinated.

Covid-19: Fact check—how many patients in hospital are unvaccinated?

Covid-19: Unvaccinated face 11 times risk of death from delta variant, CDC data show

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by drlove, posted 01-10-2022 1:46 AM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by drlove, posted 01-10-2022 2:54 PM Tangle has taken no action

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022