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Author Topic:   Belief Versus The Scientific Method
jar
Member (Idle past 421 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 196 of 513 (890448)
01-05-2022 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by drlove
01-05-2022 7:20 PM


Re: belief in the method
The audience simply can't handle the truth.

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jar
Member (Idle past 421 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 212 of 513 (890470)
01-06-2022 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by Phat
01-06-2022 7:40 AM


Phat, why do you keep using really stupid phrases as though they had some meaning?
Phat writes:
The evidence is found in your Dusty Old Book.
If that were true, then you would be able to present that evidence.
Phat writes:
For all of you here at EvC who trust humans to be our collective higher power, I can only say that you WILL be disappointed.
If that were true, then you would be able to present that evidence of some power other than humans.
Phat writes:
You escape responsibility for placing yourself under God's authority because you are not a believer.
What does "placing yourself under God's authority" even mean?
Why do so many "Christians" even accept such utter nonsense and allow the apologists and preachers and pastors and elders to get away with spouting gobbledygook?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Phat, posted 01-06-2022 7:40 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Phat, posted 01-06-2022 8:17 AM jar has replied
 Message 226 by Phat, posted 01-06-2022 4:54 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 421 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 215 of 513 (890473)
01-06-2022 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Phat
01-06-2022 8:17 AM


Re: Phat, why do you keep using really stupid phrases as though they had some meaning?
Phat writes:
Phat writes:
The evidence is found in your Dusty Old Book.
jar writes:
If that were true, then you would be able to present that evidence.
You yourself have previously said that no one has presented the evidence sufficient for your criteria. All I am saying (which you know as you have read the book) is that Paul, converted from being Saul by Jesus Christ previously states that God is not unknown. ringo claims that all "gods" are human creations and are essentially unknown since both he and you have said that no evidence shows any of them to be known or knowable. You are free to believe the evidence you have chosen to accept but you cannot be a Christian simply by doing what Christ, the character in the book, said to do while not believing in Him.
Well...perhaps you can, but you want the government to mandate that we all feed the less fortunate of the planet, give a percentage of our income higher than what we now give, build back better our modern-day ark, throw God away and move boldly into a new humanist evidence-based future. You threw away the only person/idea/messiah that will be able to make humanity succeed. But I can't give you evidence. Only you can find the evidence. And you won't.
You have not presented any evidence and it again seems that you do not even know what evidence is.
Learn the basics Phat. Quoting passages from a book is only evidence that whoever wrote the book included those lines.
Phat writes:
jar writes:
Phat writes:
For all of you here at EvC who trust humans to be our collective higher power, I can only say that you WILL be disappointed.
If that were true, then you would be able to present that evidence of some power other than humans.
No. YOU would be able to see the evidence without my help. And you wont.
But you never present the evidence for us to see, and you can't help us see what you refuse to show.
Phat writes:
jar writes:
Phat writes:
You escape responsibility for placing yourself under God's authority because you are not a believer.
What does "placing yourself under God's authority" even mean?
It means believing in a higher power than humans.
What higher power? Do you have any evidence of a higher power or a model, method, means, process, procedure that someone could identify such a higher power?
Phat writes:
jar writes:
Why do so many "Christians" even accept such utter nonsense and allow the apologists and preachers and pastors and elders to get away with spouting gobbledygook?
Why have you dedicated your life to dismissing a known God? Why have you decided to accept only that it is what YOU do that matters?
One thing I will say. If you and the humanists do your best and it ends up working, I'll shut up. Until then, you are WRONG until further notice
What does that have to do with the question I asked?
So yet again, 'Why do so many "Christians" even accept such utter nonsense and allow the apologists and preachers and pastors and elders to get away with spouting gobbledygook?'
Edited by jar, : fix quotebox

Edited by jar, : more quotebox stuff.


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jar
Member (Idle past 421 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 228 of 513 (890500)
01-06-2022 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Phat
01-06-2022 4:54 PM


Re: Phrases have meaning whether you agree with them or not.
Phat writes:
Because a large percentage of us believe that the Bible is divinely inspired. We have no evidence. You seem to insist on me accepting the point that there is no evidence. What I am trying to get you to accept is that for many of us, belief and inner confirmation are enough. Call it gobbledygook or fantasy if you prefer.
But in the case of the Bible being a purely human construct there is overwhelming evidence.
You have no evidence while I have overwhelming evidence.
Phat writes:
My response is so what? Why do you dislike us so much? What if some of what we claim to foresee actually occur? Would it bother you if more people committed to becoming believers rather than sticking with logic, reason, and evidence-based reality?
If something you claim actually comes true then there would possibly be some evidence.
Of course it would bother me if even more people became what you call believers but what in reality is delusional fantasists.
A population that operates of SOURCE over content, BELIEF over evidence and FANTASY over reality is a world gone mad.
Remember Phat, just as I am a Christian, I am also a Republican. But I am not a member of the Christian Cult of Ignorance or of the current Fascist party that has adopted the GOP name.
Phat writes:
What I don't like about you is that you openly accept an unknown God.
But Phat, all the evidence, ALL of the evidence supports the conclusion that if GOD exists it is an unknown God. I am open to you providing evidence or process or procedure or plan or model or mechanism or method that anyone could know GOD.
Phat writes:
You insist on limiting Jesus to human status. And the basis of your Christian worldview is that *we* have to do all of it. We seem to believe that Jesus is living and active and can and will help us. You wave the evidence card in our face and tell us that no one has ever been able to explain how this could be possible. And yet you even abhor believing that Jesus could do it. That He could be eternal. The rift between us is infinitely wide.
I can see absolutely no value to Jesus' death if he was not simply human.
But wait, there's more.
And I and others have gone over this with you repeatedly.
Did human have to build the Ark?
Did the Israelites have to walk out of Egypt on their own two feet?
Did human have to go out in the morning and gather the mana and catch the wild pheasants and partridges?
Did humans have to plant the crops, harvest the crops, build the granaries, store the surplus, distribute the food to the needy during the lean years?
Did people have to gather up the leftovers from the fish fry and distribute it to the hungry?
Did Jesus say that we should feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, protect the weak, heal the sick and comfort the sorrowful?
You want someone else to do it, you want someone else to solve the problems, you want Holy Jeeves.
Fantasy is always easier. Letting Jeeves do it is always easier. Selling salvation is always more profitable.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Have you ever read the Bible Phat?
Edited by jar, : part ---> party

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by drlove, posted 01-06-2022 8:13 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 421 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 247 of 513 (890523)
01-07-2022 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by drlove
01-06-2022 8:13 PM


Re: Phrases have meaning whether you agree with them or not.
Dupe.
Please present your supporting evidence.
Edited by jar, : No reason given.

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jar
Member (Idle past 421 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 290 of 513 (890586)
01-08-2022 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Tanypteryx
01-08-2022 2:17 PM


Or a reputable journal.

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jar
Member (Idle past 421 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 323 of 513 (890638)
01-09-2022 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by drlove
01-09-2022 3:06 AM


It is a matter of fact not belief.
It is a matter of fact rather than belief that the fault lies totally and completely with the unvaccinated.
Those who refuse to get vaccinated and are eligible to get vaccinated are quite simply nothing but mutation factories.
They should have every right to not get vaccinated but if they decide not to get vaccinated then they should not be allowed into the general population.

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 Message 322 by drlove, posted 01-09-2022 3:06 AM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 421 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(3)
Message 328 of 513 (890645)
01-09-2022 9:53 AM


Covid-19 death rate between vaccinated vs un-vaccinated by nation.
Here is a study, updated as recently as December 27, 2021, of the death rates between the vaccinated and unvaccinated by nation. It also includes an explanation of why the rate rather than absolute number is both relevant and essential.
The conclusion based on actual data is that vaccinated or un-vaccinated is the single biggest determinate between the two datasets.
And here is a study from August 31, 2021 that shows that hospitalization are also far higher in unvaccinated populations than vaccinated.
These are not matters of belief but rather cold hard facts, commonly referred to as REALITY.
Edited by jar, : fix quoteboxes.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by drlove, posted 01-09-2022 2:46 PM jar has replied
 Message 404 by Percy, posted 01-10-2022 7:30 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 421 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 330 of 513 (890647)
01-09-2022 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 329 by AZPaul3
01-09-2022 10:53 AM


belief vs unbelief
An important point is that people are free to believe or not-believe the data.
But believe or not-believe does not change the facts, the reality, the data or the death and hospitalization rates.
Reality always wins.
The bill always gets paid.
The willfully stupid people that do not get vaccinated endanger all of us but most likely we will do fine while they will simply be dead.
NMP
Edited by jar, : -s

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jar
Member (Idle past 421 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 337 of 513 (890658)
01-09-2022 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by drlove
01-09-2022 2:36 PM


Re: belief vs unbelief
drl writes:
So where does that leave the willing people who died because of the vax they took, and the million plus who had bad effects? Some experts suggest that the actual number may be 20 times higher since true stats are not kept or available. Other estimates are that the numbers are at least 5 times higher.
The willing people who died because of the vax they took are a tragedy but an insignificant number of cases.
The rest of your post is simply nonsense or just plain lies.
AbE: ALL of the actual data shows that since I'm fully vaccinated and have also had the first booster shot and since I will continue to get vaccinated when it is available that iv I am exposed to covid-19 I will have a relatively mild case and no end up hospitalized.
That is the reality.
The actual data as shown in the reports I presented to you shows that the unvaccinated will suffer far more than I will.
Their pain and possible death are quite frankly, not my problem.
Edited by jar, : see AbE

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jar
Member (Idle past 421 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 339 of 513 (890660)
01-09-2022 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by drlove
01-09-2022 2:46 PM


Re: Covid-19 death rate between vaccinated vs un-vaccinated by nation.
drl writes:
That is impossible because there are no stats on how many actual deaths and serious reactions to the vaccine. I say actual because it is commonly reported that the forms are not filled out, since they are time consuming and cumbersome. No one has time for them basically. Any stats we do have therefore are not serious numbers
Present the actual studies that support that assertion.
drl writes:
Any stats we do have therefore are not serious numbers. The stats about how people were declared a covid death are also hopelessly skewed. The deaths are those that supposedly tested positive with the virus, not those who died from it generally.
Present the actual studies that support that assertion.
So far you have present not one single study that supports any of your assertions.
I'm not sure you even have a clue what evidence is.

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jar
Member (Idle past 421 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 342 of 513 (890667)
01-09-2022 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by drlove
01-09-2022 2:56 PM


Once again, you simply fail to present either evidence or even reasoned argument to support your assertions.
You are free to be as willfully stupid as you like but that does no change the fact that the data ALL shows you are simply wrong.

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 Message 340 by drlove, posted 01-09-2022 2:56 PM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by drlove, posted 01-09-2022 3:27 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 421 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 348 of 513 (890673)
01-09-2022 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by drlove
01-09-2022 3:27 PM


drl writes:
The reasoned argument is that in the example of medical science, there are different opinions and beliefs on some issues. That tells us that belief is involved, whatever side of the coin you may prefer.
Sorry but that statement simply shows that you really don't know what evidence is.
Belief or non-belief does not change the actual data or reality and ALL of the data actually shows that vaccines work, and stupidity doesn't.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by drlove, posted 01-09-2022 3:27 PM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by drlove, posted 01-10-2022 1:48 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 421 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 358 of 513 (890697)
01-10-2022 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 355 by drlove
01-10-2022 1:48 AM


LOL
You are not even capable of reading the article. It is an opinion piece and not backed up by hard data.
The studies I provided you were data from all over the world.
But please, continue to be willfully stupid.
I'm vaccinated and will remain vaccinated. Your death or disability is simply NOT MY Problem.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by drlove, posted 01-10-2022 1:48 AM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by drlove, posted 01-10-2022 2:56 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 421 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 363 of 513 (890750)
01-10-2022 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by Theodoric
01-10-2022 2:35 PM


Re: To question you must understand
Theo writes:
Our 12 and 15-year-old boys were over it in a day.
Amazing just what being young does.
Not too long ago I was watching the Little League Not-Quite-World Series for this year and the things those kids did diving for balls would have left me in bed for weeks. In bed after a team of medics stabilized all my joints and padded everything enough to get me to a bed.

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