Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9057 total)
115 online now:
jar, PaulK, Percy (Admin), Tangle, Tanypteryx, Theodoric (6 members, 109 visitors)
Newest Member: drlove
Post Volume: Total: 889,896 Year: 1,008/6,534 Month: 1,008/682 Week: 61/182 Day: 6/29 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Belief Versus The Scientific Method
drlove
Member
Posts: 146
Joined: 01-02-2022
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 436 of 480 (891023)
01-13-2022 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 431 by AZPaul3
01-13-2022 12:52 PM


Re: making it up as they go along
Do we know that it will go one for decades? The latest variant apparently is far less severe.

In fact it is being recommended that travel restrictions against the unvaccinated be removed!

"The World Health Organisation (WHO) on Wednesday said vaccination status should not be used to disqualify people from travelling internationally and governments should only use vaccine mandates as a “last resort”.

Djokovic visa row: WHO says vaccine mandates should be ‘last resort’


This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by AZPaul3, posted 01-13-2022 12:52 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 441 by AZPaul3, posted 01-13-2022 10:19 PM drlove has responded

  
drlove
Member
Posts: 146
Joined: 01-02-2022
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 437 of 480 (891024)
01-13-2022 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 428 by Tangle
01-13-2022 3:37 AM


Re: Forcing My Hand Towards Science
Trust the drug companies for honest results? That is hard to do when we are dealing with known liars. Didn't the lead Dr in the US get accused of lying under oath?
So why would anyone believe the so called reasons they give for having to change their story?
https://nypost.com/...een-keeping-us-from-the-truth-on-covid

https://nypost.com/...een-keeping-us-from-the-truth-on-covid

They say whatever seems convenient for that side of their mouth that day apparently.
Trump Slammed the W.H.O. Over Coronavirus. He’s Not Alone. (Published 2020)
Opinion | World Health Coronavirus Disinformation
Italy prosecutors: WHO exec lied about spiked virus report
An infamous WHO tweet saying there was 'no clear evidence' COVID-19 could spread between humans was posted for 'balance' to reflect findings from China

Then there is the matter of WHO making false statements to achieve a goal of theirs. example:
The WHO’s decision to adopt the generic identifier ‘ swine flu’ was arguably a noble one, intended to avoid damage to the Mexican economy. It did, however, result in a raft of unintended consequences that rapidly revealed the decision was a mistake. Indeed, within weeks of the descriptor being applied, approximately 20 per cent of the WHO’s member states implemented a series of measures that exceeded, and thereby contravened, international norms (Davies et al. 2015). In late April 2009, for example, the Egyptian government ordered the mass culling of all pigs throughout the country (estimated to be between 250,000 and 400,000 animals) as a ‘preventative measure’, despite the fact that no human cases of H1N1 had been recorded in Egypt nor any reported outbreaks of H1N1 had occurred in pigs worldwide (Katz and Fischer 2010). Within days, the Iraqi government followed Egypt’s lead and ordered the culling of three boars in a Baghdad zoo (Karadesh 2009). Added to this, some 20 other countries including Russia, the Philippines, Indonesia, Bahrain and China imposed trade import bans on all live pigs, pork and pork products, citing concerns over the risk that H1N1 may be introduced into their respective human populations (Lynn 2009; WTO 2009; Katz and Fischer 2010)."
What Went Wrong? The World Health Organization from Swine Flu to Ebola

The WHO is involved with killing babies. So basically they are mass murderers. Thinking they might also lie is no great surprise! I notice it was Fauci who announced the US was back in the gung ho baby slaughter business.
Fauci: US to repeal anti-abortion rule on aid and join Covax vaccine scheme

Is it any wonder that those lying murderers are not believed by many people?

Edited by drlove, : No reason given.

Edited by drlove, : No reason given.

Edited by drlove, : No reason given.

Edited by drlove, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 428 by Tangle, posted 01-13-2022 3:37 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 438 by Tangle, posted 01-13-2022 5:19 PM drlove has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8331
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 438 of 480 (891027)
01-13-2022 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 437 by drlove
01-13-2022 4:24 PM


Re: Forcing My Hand Towards Science
drlove writes:

Trust the drug companies for honest results?

Oxford University is not a drug company.

Can you provide any evidence at all - any - that the AZ COVID vaccine has not been properly tested. Any?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by drlove, posted 01-13-2022 4:24 PM drlove has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 439 by drlove, posted 01-13-2022 7:14 PM Tangle has responded

  
drlove
Member
Posts: 146
Joined: 01-02-2022
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 439 of 480 (891030)
01-13-2022 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 438 by Tangle
01-13-2022 5:19 PM


Foxes guarding henhouse
Can you show that all death and adverse effects of vaccines are properly attributed and reported? I do not think you can. If someone dies from a heart attack or has some neurological condition is this all deemed a result of the vaccines? No.

Who tests the vaccine? Ha

" Pfizer and BioNTech leveraged decades of scientific expertise to design and execute a rigorous Phase 3 clinical trial program to make the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine available as quickly and safely as possible. Today, we are continuing to evaluate data from this landmark trial"

Coronavirus COVID-19 Vaccine Update: Latest Developments | Pfizer

So here are the people we are supposed to trust!

"Pfizer has faced thousands of lawsuits filed for medical injuries caused by some of its most popular drugs. It has also set a record for the largest fine paid for a health care fraud lawsuit filed by the U.S. Department of Justice. Pfizer paid $2.3 billion in fines, penalties, and settlement for illegal marketing claims."

Pfizer - History of Pfizer, Products & Legal Claims

Not trusting them is 'not science'?

Edited by drlove, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 438 by Tangle, posted 01-13-2022 5:19 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 444 by Tangle, posted 01-14-2022 2:30 AM drlove has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2197
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 440 of 480 (891032)
01-13-2022 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 434 by drlove
01-13-2022 4:02 PM


Re: making it up as they go along
Give us the scientific method that says experiment on kids and others with any sort of shortcuts you want to take?

you've yet to name any shortcuts taken, any regulations bypassed. Of course this is because you're full of shit.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 434 by drlove, posted 01-13-2022 4:02 PM drlove has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 442 by drlove, posted 01-14-2022 1:24 AM DrJones* has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6215
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.2


Message 441 of 480 (891034)
01-13-2022 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 436 by drlove
01-13-2022 4:19 PM


Way to go trying to obfuscate the point.

And, besides your lies, the Aussies have their own house in order.

‘Rubbish’ things anti-vaxxers believe


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by drlove, posted 01-13-2022 4:19 PM drlove has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 443 by drlove, posted 01-14-2022 1:28 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
drlove
Member
Posts: 146
Joined: 01-02-2022
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 442 of 480 (891035)
01-14-2022 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 440 by DrJones*
01-13-2022 7:45 PM


Re: making it up as they go along
The ten year thing? Also, the thing where a drug company with thousands of legal cases against them is in charge of the testing? That is your idea of science?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by DrJones*, posted 01-13-2022 7:45 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 448 by DrJones*, posted 01-14-2022 8:01 PM drlove has responded

  
drlove
Member
Posts: 146
Joined: 01-02-2022
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 443 of 480 (891036)
01-14-2022 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 441 by AZPaul3
01-13-2022 10:19 PM


No more than Hitler had his house in order.

Below are a few of the doctors saying that lockdowns are the wrong way to go.
"

Dr. Alexander Walker, principal at World Health Information Science Consultants, former Chair of Epidemiology, Harvard TH Chan School of Public Health, USA
Dr. Andrius Kavaliunas, epidemiologist and assistant professor at Karolinska Institute, Sweden

Dr. Angus Dalgleish, oncologist, infectious disease expert and professor, St. George’s Hospital Medical School, University of London, England

Dr. Anthony J Brookes, professor of genetics, University of Leicester, England
Dr. Annie Janvier, professor of pediatrics and clinical ethics, Université de Montréal and Sainte-Justine University Medical Centre, Canada

Dr. Ariel Munitz, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel

Dr. Boris Kotchoubey, Institute for Medical Psychology, University of Tübingen, Germany
Dr. Cody Meissner, professor of pediatrics, expert on vaccine development, efficacy, and safety. Tufts University School of Medicine, USA

Dr. David Katz, physician and president, True Health Initiative, and founder of the Yale University Prevention Research Center, USA

Dr. David Livermore, microbiologist, infectious disease epidemiologist and professor, University of East Anglia, England

Dr. Eitan Friedman, professor of medicine, Tel-Aviv University, Israel

Dr. Ellen Townsend, professor of psychology, head of the Self-Harm Research Group, University of Nottingham, England
Dr. Eyal Shahar, physician, epidemiologist and professor (emeritus) of public health, University of Arizona, USA

Dr. Florian Limbourg, physician and hypertension researcher, professor at Hannover Medical School, Germany
Dr. Gabriela Gomes, mathematician studying infectious disease epidemiology, professor, University of Strathclyde, Scotland

Dr. Gerhard Krönke, physician and professor of translational immunology, University of Erlangen-Nuremberg, Germany

Dr. Gesine Weckmann, professor of health education and prevention, Europäische Fachhochschule, Rostock, Germany

Dr. Günter Kampf, associate professor, Institute for Hygiene and Environmental Medicine, Greifswald University, Germany

Dr. Helen Colhoun, professor of medical informatics and epidemiology, and public health physician, University of Edinburgh, Scotland
Dr. Jonas Ludvigsson, pediatrician, epidemiologist and professor at Karolinska Institute and senior physician at Örebro University Hospital, Sweden

Dr. Karol Sikora, physician, oncologist, and professor of medicine at the University of Buckingham, England
Dr. Laura Lazzeroni, professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences and of biomedical data science, Stanford University Medical School, USA

Dr. Lisa White, professor of modelling and epidemiology, Oxford University, England
Dr. Mario Recker, malaria researcher and associate professor, University of Exeter, England

Dr. Matthew Ratcliffe, professor of philosophy, specializing in philosophy of mental health, University of York, England
Dr. Matthew Strauss, critical care physician and assistant professor of medicine, Queen’s University, Canada
Dr. Michael Jackson, research fellow, School of Biological Sciences, University of Canterbury, New Zealand

Dr. Michael Levitt, biophysicist and professor of structural biology, Stanford University, USA.
Recipient of the 2013 Nobel Prize in Chemistry.

Dr. Mike Hulme, professor of human geography, University of Cambridge, England

Dr. Motti Gerlic, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel

Dr. Partha P. Majumder, professor and founder of the National Institute of Biomedical Genomics, Kalyani, India
Dr. Paul McKeigue, physician, disease modeler and professor of epidemiology and public health, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

Dr. Rajiv Bhatia, physician, epidemiologist and public policy expert at the Veterans Administration, USA
Dr. Rodney Sturdivant, infectious disease scientist and associate professor of biostatistics, Baylor University, USA
Dr. Simon Thornley, epidemiologist and biostatistician, University of Auckland, New Zealand

Dr. Simon Wood, biostatistician and professor, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

Dr. Stephen Bremner,professor of medical statistics, University of Sussex, England

Dr. Sylvia Fogel, autism provider and psychiatrist at Massachusetts General Hospital and instructor at Harvard Medical School, USA
Tom Nicholson, Associate in Research, Duke Center for International Development, Sanford School of Public Policy, Duke University, USA

Dr. Udi Qimron, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel

Dr. Ulrike Kämmerer, professor and expert in virology, immunology and cell biology, University of Würzburg, Germany

Dr. Uri Gavish, biomedical consultant, Israel

Dr. Yaz Gulnur Muradoglu, professor of finance, director of the Behavioural Finance Working Group, Queen Mary University of London, England"
Great Barrington Declaration and Petition

They join 916,000 others in that opinion, and that is just one site! Let's not pretend science says we need lockdowns.

Edited by drlove, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 441 by AZPaul3, posted 01-13-2022 10:19 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 445 by Tangle, posted 01-14-2022 4:22 AM drlove has not yet responded
 Message 446 by AZPaul3, posted 01-14-2022 6:51 AM drlove has not yet responded
 Message 447 by Theodoric, posted 01-14-2022 10:50 AM drlove has responded
 Message 455 by Percy, posted 01-15-2022 2:08 PM drlove has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8331
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 444 of 480 (891037)
01-14-2022 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 439 by drlove
01-13-2022 7:14 PM


Re: Foxes guarding henhouse
drlove writes:

Not trusting them is 'not science'?

I'll ask again as you seem to have missed my question.

Oxford University is not a drug company.

Can you provide any evidence at all - any - that the AZ COVID vaccine has not been properly tested. Any?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by drlove, posted 01-13-2022 7:14 PM drlove has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 449 by drlove, posted 01-14-2022 9:32 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8331
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 445 of 480 (891038)
01-14-2022 4:22 AM
Reply to: Message 443 by drlove
01-14-2022 1:28 AM


drlove writes:

No more than Hitler had his house in order.

It's always best to keep Hitler out of discussions that don't concern the him. Otherwise people will think that you're a boring and stupid troll. God forbid eh?

Below are a few of the doctors saying that lockdowns are the wrong way to go.

Well I clicked on the only link you provided just to see what particular lie you're attempting to spread with this latest list you've copied from you Russian controller's collection of propaganda.

quote:
The Great Barrington Declaration – As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection.

Coming from both the left and right, and around the world, we have devoted our careers to protecting people. Current lockdown policies are producing devastating effects on short and long-term public health. The results (to name a few) include lower childhood vaccination rates, worsening cardiovascular disease outcomes, fewer cancer screenings and deteriorating mental health – leading to greater excess mortality in years to come, with the working class and younger members of society carrying the heaviest burden. Keeping students out of school is a grave injustice.

Keeping these measures in place until a vaccine is available will cause irreparable damage, with the underprivileged disproportionately harmed.


I think that this is worthy of debate. Lockdowns are very balanced decisions and their usefulness now is less obvious than before vaccines.

But to prevent the thread disappearing into a Gish Gallop of multiple unrelated assertions, why not open a thread to discuss it properly?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by drlove, posted 01-14-2022 1:28 AM drlove has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6215
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.2


(2)
Message 446 of 480 (891040)
01-14-2022 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 443 by drlove
01-14-2022 1:28 AM


Below are a few of the doctors saying that lockdowns are the wrong way to go.

No one seems to care.

Your declaration has been out more than a year and has not influenced the global or national discussions at all.

They join 916,000 others in that opinion...

You want to say these are all knowledgeable scientists in immunology?

Fact is 800,000 of these signatures are from the general public, not scientists. And of the remainder very few have any background in infectious disease let alone biology in general.

quote:
contains numerous clearly-fake names, including "Mr Banana Rama", "Dr Johnny Bananas", "Dr Johnny Fartpants", "Dr Person Fakename", "Harold Shipman", "Professor Notaf Uckingclue", and "Prof Cominic Dummings".[38][39][40] More than 100 psychotherapists, numerous homeopaths, physiotherapists, massage therapists, and other non-relevant people were found to be signatories ...
Wiki

Your Great Barrington Declaration and Petition is known farce. Another lie from the forked tongue of right-wing devils trying to burn society.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by drlove, posted 01-14-2022 1:28 AM drlove has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7148
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 447 of 480 (891047)
01-14-2022 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 443 by drlove
01-14-2022 1:28 AM


It is not based on science. Enough said.

quote:
The Great Barrington Declaration was sponsored by the American Institute for Economic Research, a libertarian free market think tank associated with climate change denial.
Reporting on the declaration, Byline Times journalist Nafeez Ahmed has described the AIER as a "institution embedded in a Koch-funded network that denies climate science while investing in polluting fossil fuel industries".[13] Byline Times has reported that the organisation operates an investment fund with $284 million under management, and has invested its assets in several fossil fuel companies, including Chevron and ExxonMobil, tobacco giant Philip Morris International, Microsoft, Alphabet Inc. and many other companies.[13][14] Its 2018 revenues were in excess of US$2.2 million[33] and included a US$68,100 donation from the Charles Koch Foundation.[13][34] AIER's network of local "Bastiat Society" chapters partners with the Atlas Network, Ayn Rand Institute, Cato Institute, the Charles Koch Institute, and other Koch-funded think tanks.[14] Controversial research funded by AIER in the past includes a study asserting that sweatshops supplying multinationals are beneficial for those working in them,[35][36] and AIER's statements and publications consistently downplay the risks of climate change, with titles such as "The Real Reason Nobody Takes Environmental Activists Seriously" and "Brazilians Should Keep Slashing Their Rainforest".[13][33]

https://en.wikipedia.org/...t_Barrington_Declaration#Sponsor

How much more shit do you have to throw against the wall? Your Gish Gallop is not working


What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by drlove, posted 01-14-2022 1:28 AM drlove has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 451 by drlove, posted 01-14-2022 9:38 PM Theodoric has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2197
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 448 of 480 (891061)
01-14-2022 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 442 by drlove
01-14-2022 1:24 AM


Re: making it up as they go along
The ten year thing?

What specific FDA regulation mandates a 10 year period before a vaccine is released to the public?

Also, the thing where a drug company with thousands of legal cases against them is in charge of the testing?

if we prevented all drug companies who have legal cases against them from developing new drugs we wouldn't have new drugs. Do you have any evidence that the people involved in the development of the vaccines were involved in any malfeasance?

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 442 by drlove, posted 01-14-2022 1:24 AM drlove has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 450 by drlove, posted 01-14-2022 9:35 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

  
drlove
Member
Posts: 146
Joined: 01-02-2022
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 449 of 480 (891062)
01-14-2022 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 444 by Tangle
01-14-2022 2:30 AM


Re: Foxes guarding henhouse
Can you show how the blind aspect of the test was done? To have a group monitored that was unvaccinated as compared to a vaccinated group, can you guarantee all that group never got vaccinated? If they or some of them did, then well, you know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by Tangle, posted 01-14-2022 2:30 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 453 by Tangle, posted 01-15-2022 4:56 AM drlove has responded

  
drlove
Member
Posts: 146
Joined: 01-02-2022
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 450 of 480 (891063)
01-14-2022 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 448 by DrJones*
01-14-2022 8:01 PM


Re: making it up as they go along
That is no excuse for allowing convicted frauds to do the testing for drugs they will make untold billions on! Then we see some results are trying to be hidden for many many decades!!! They also demanded protection against death and injury responsibility! This is science?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 448 by DrJones*, posted 01-14-2022 8:01 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022